Rugby Thread

[Vikingman]

Unfortunately, I think that one of the biggest barriers that rugby union has in attracting casual fans is that you have to have some understanding of the game to appreciate it - Its complicated, and with modern defences it's a chess game.

It's a hard line to toe as by simplifying or trying to make it flow more and attract new fans you drive away the rugbys "purists" who love the battles within the game (kicking, scrums, pick and goes, mauls etc).

Rugby league is more simple, more flowing and has some serious displays of athleticism and power but I find it rather boring to watch.

Having said that I played union for 20 years at various levels but some of my most enjoyable times on the pitch were during a brief foray into lower level rugby league. There was no efforts to move defences or break them down, it was just run hard and straight. In defence i absolutely loved it and in attack i felt like i was finding it surprisingly easy to make yards simply by arcing runs and stepping into gaps rather than just ploughing into the defence. My hand-off was always my strongest weapon in attack and the upright nature of tackling meant I was able to use it with gay abandon.

In one game me and a big kiwi bloke were just having a running battle, both just seeking each other out all game. It was brilliant .

Hi Hacker, thought this deserved a reply. My interest in union is probably similar to a union's fan of league, i,e I see it a few times on TV and it bores me. All the "purist" stuff you mention plus this new found urge to go through 27 "phases" were they basically have a big man plough head down into another big man one metre away. We see things different ways.

I agree rugby league is simple game to watch, its uncomplicated and the uninitiated can pick up the rules fairly easily. I'd disagree its a simple game to play.

Using your own example, like yourself it was very similar to that when I've played it, that also was at the very lowest levels. I have to say though it took more than an arcing run to break a defence, the opposition had this annoying habit of moving to close the gap.

But when you say, "there was no effort to move defences or break them down" is that not indicative of the level you played at?

Because it doesn't really stack up with union first of all hiring league coaches to show them how to defend and then having to hire more league coaches to show them how to break said defences.

A few years ago I watched Castleford put on a scrum play move that I'd never seen before (and I watch a lot of games). It resulted in the Castleford winger walking in in the corner untouched. Imagine my surprise when I saw Scotland put on the same play with the same result eight days later in the six nations. Co incidence?

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I used to watch some rugby league, but that was when it was played at the right time of year….the winter.
I don’t watch any of it now, but when I have I find it boring and repeatative.
I admit I have always preferred union but have always been open to watching “big games” of league, but now I don’t.
Wheelchair rugby I love.

 

[HeftyHacker]

Hi Hacker, thought this deserved a reply. My interest in union is probably similar to a union's fan of league, i,e I see it a few times on TV and it bores me. All the "purist" stuff you mention plus this new found urge to go through 27 "phases" were they basically have a big man plough head down into another big man one metre away. We see things different ways.

I agree rugby league is simple game to watch, its uncomplicated and the uninitiated can pick up the rules fairly easily. I'd disagree its a simple game to play.

Using your own example, like yourself it was very similar to that when I've played it, that also was at the very lowest levels. I have to say though it took more than an arcing run to break a defence, the opposition had this annoying habit of moving to close the gap.

But when you say, "there was no effort to move defences or break them down" is that not indicative of the level you played at?

Because it doesn't really stack up with union first of all hiring league coaches to show them how to defend and then having to hire more league coaches to show them how to break said defences.

A few years ago I watched Castleford put on a scrum play move that I'd never seen before (and I watch a lot of games). It resulted in the Castleford winger walking in in the corner untouched. Imagine my surprise when I saw Scotland put on the same play with the same result eight days later in the six nations. Co incidence?

I've actually just had a look to see what level it was I played at - the team I played for have since disbanded so had a look at the opponents I played against. Looks like it was NW division 1, one below Premier and with a further 3 leagues below that - so not the very lowest level per se.

When I say arc a run I mean cutting a line and then tweaking my line about 3 or 4 yards from contact (not quite a full step as such). By that point the tackler had set himself for the tackle so I was moving the point of contact from his shoulders to his arms, which combined with the handoff was enough to get me through the tackle, over the gainline, and make a few extra yards before the outside man had gathered himself and helped out. I just don't think they were expecting someone my size to go for the gap and the more upright method of tackling rather than chopping me down suited how I played tbh. There's another element in that I didn't have a clue what I was doing so if I didn't know, how were they meant to!

I think what rugby league coaches brought to union was the speed of the line in defence and the "choking" of the attacking player - holding the ball up in the tackle and the ruck down. The difference in defences from then to now is massive in terms of the amount of time - more specifically the lack of- that you have on the ball. In terms of attack what we now see a lot of is having that second line of attack. The idea being that the crash runners fix the defence and then the "trail" runners see where the resulting gaps are and play to those. Again a rugby league influence. As a crashball centre myself my job in attack was to get between the 10/12/13 and suck the defence in. After a few crash balls you could kind of suss out what the defence was about that day. If they were both biting in on me then that left a space to the outside that we could exploit and I might spend the rest of game essentially running a dummy line. If they had an effective drift with good tacklers then we had to attack the fringes of the breakdown more and stretch the defence that way by not allowing them to drift.or putting little kicks over the top to turn them.

Sorry I'm just waffling , but I can't deny that league now influences a lot of how union is played, particularly in the backs.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Was talking the other day to a mate who supports Leicester.
Imagine Danny Hipkiss playing now. His biggest skill was staying on his feet in/through contact. Now, with every carry he makes he'd be turning the ball over to the opposition, thanks to being held up by the tackler.
So I'd ask, has the rule of mauls being collapsed handing over possession actually spoiled the game?

 

[HeftyHacker]

Was talking the other day to a mate who supports Leicester.
Imagine Danny Hipkiss playing now. His biggest skill was staying on his feet in/through contact. Now, with every carry he makes he'd be turning the ball over to the opposition, thanks to being held up by the tackler.
So I'd ask, has the rule of mauls being collapsed handing over possession actually spoiled the game?

I wouldn't have said so as the game has moved on - probably as a direct result of that law change. The game is certainly quicker for it I'd say. These days it's all about speed of getting the ball back. The ability to stay on your feet only really becomes a positive if you're a) able to get your arms free and offload or b) you've got yourself isolated and to go down would result in the defenders getting a jackal in and turning the ball over, so you can stay on your feet until support arrives.

The only mauls you really see now are where someone has got themselves really out of position or a driving maul from a line-out.

 

[Vikingman]

Was talking the other day to a mate who supports Leicester.
Imagine Danny Hipkiss playing now. His biggest skill was staying on his feet in/through contact. Now, with every carry he makes he'd be turning the ball over to the opposition, thanks to being held up by the tackler.
So I'd ask, has the rule of mauls being collapsed handing over possession actually spoiled the game?

I've actually just had a look to see what level it was I played at - the team I played for have since disbanded so had a look at the opponents I played against. Looks like it was NW division 1, one below Premier and with a further 3 leagues below that - so not the very lowest level per se.

When I say arc a run I mean cutting a line and then tweaking my line about 3 or 4 yards from contact (not quite a full step as such). By that point the tackler had set himself for the tackle so I was moving the point of contact from his shoulders to his arms, which combined with the handoff was enough to get me through the tackle, over the gainline, and make a few extra yards before the outside man had gathered himself and helped out. I just don't think they were expecting someone my size to go for the gap and the more upright method of tackling rather than chopping me down suited how I played tbh. There's another element in that I didn't have a clue what I was doing so if I didn't know, how were they meant to!

I think what rugby league coaches brought to union was the speed of the line in defence and the "choking" of the attacking player - holding the ball up in the tackle and the ruck down. The difference in defences from then to now is massive in terms of the amount of time - more specifically the lack of- that you have on the ball. In terms of attack what we now see a lot of is having that second line of attack. The idea being that the crash runners fix the defence and then the "trail" runners see where the resulting gaps are and play to those. Again a rugby league influence. As a crashball centre myself my job in attack was to get between the 10/12/13 and suck the defence in. After a few crash balls you could kind of suss out what the defence was about that day. If they were both biting in on me then that left a space to the outside that we could exploit and I might spend the rest of game essentially running a dummy line. If they had an effective drift with good tacklers then we had to attack the fringes of the breakdown more and stretch the defence that way by not allowing them to drift.or putting little kicks over the top to turn them.

Sorry I'm just waffling , but I can't deny that league now influences a lot of how union is played, particularly in the backs.

If you played NW Counties Div 1 you weren't playing against mugs. It could be pretty brutal. Remember the first time I saw that move you describe like it was yesterday. My lot conceded four tries off it against Warrington. The first three times we took out the lead runner and they hit the second man with the pass. The fourth time we took out the second man and they hit the lead runner. Such is life.

 

[HeftyHacker]

If you played NW Counties Div 1 you weren't playing against mugs. It could be pretty brutal. Remember the first time I saw that move you describe like it was yesterday. My lot conceded four tries off it against Warrington. The first three times we took out the lead runner and they hit the second man with the pass. The fourth time we took out the second man and they hit the lead runner. Such is life.

It's been a gamechanger in union tbf - you can run it from anywhere with pretty much anyone really and you can layer it up as well by doing the same again off the first trail runner. If you've got the right personnel then you've got about 5 running options from the single phase of play.

Oh it wasn't easy playing those league games. Some of the hits were savage and it wasn't your typical park players with guts hanging over their shorts waddling between sets they were big fit lads.

I think if there'd been a more local team where I was living at the time I'd have stuck at it. It was great fun!

A lot of the lads I played against over the years in the NW used to play both and it was obvious which ones did.

Funnily enough you mention league players becoming union attack coaches - I played opposite Martin Gleeson one game when he turned out for Orrell (union) and I had a run out for my hometown club. Wasn't the biggest or flashiest player but just did all the basics really well. He'd have been late 30s at this point but you could tell he was some player in his day.


Was quite surprised when England named him as their new attack coach a couple of years later!

 

[Vikingman]

It's been a gamechanger in union tbf - you can run it from anywhere with pretty much anyone really and you can layer it up as well by doing the same again off the first trail runner. If you've got the right personnel then you've got about 5 running options from the single phase of play.

Oh it wasn't easy playing those league games. Some of the hits were savage and it wasn't your typical park players with guts hanging over their shorts waddling between sets they were big fit lads.

I think if there'd been a more local team where I was living at the time I'd have stuck at it. It was great fun!

A lot of the lads I played against over the years in the NW used to play both and it was obvious which ones did.

Funnily enough you mention league players becoming union attack coaches - I played opposite Martin Gleeson one game when he turned out for Orrell (union) and I had a run out for my hometown club. Wasn't the biggest or flashiest player but just did all the basics really well. He'd have been late 30s at this point but you could tell he was some player in his day.


Was quite surprised when England named him as their new attack coach a couple of years later!

A guy I know played at the very top level of the English game. With regard to the defensive side he told me you had a pretty good idea what plays they'd put on, the difficult bit was stopping them. You are spot on when you mention the basics, if you can perform them well at speed you will be a handful for anyone.

 

[GB72]

A guy I know played at the very top level of the English game. With regard to the defensive side he told me you had a pretty good idea what plays they'd put on, the difficult bit was stopping them. You are spot on when you mention the basics, if you can perform them well at speed you will be a handful for anyone.

Saw an article today about coaches telling players to be the best at the things that need no skill. even if the opposition are better than you, you can be the quickest up off the floor, the best in the kick chase, the best at no end of things that require no higher or lower level of skill, just determination and if you can do that, you can win.

 

[Vikingman]

Saw an article today about coaches telling players to be the best at the things that need no skill. even if the opposition are better than you, you can be the quickest up off the floor, the best in the kick chase, the best at no end of things that require no higher or lower level of skill, just determination and if you can do that, you can win.

Helps if you're smart as well. Shaun Edwards was never the greatest player but he was a very smart player. Not the slightest bit surprised that he's done so well in coaching.

 

[Grizzly]

I think the proliferation of defence coaches coming over to Union from League (interesting, most of them having been creative players in the 13 man code) relates back to the differences in phase play between the two sports (I can't imagine there will be anyone reading this who doesn't know but just in case, League forces teams to hand the ball over after six phases of play).

In Union, you have a theoretically endless number of phases - and if you look back at the teams that have won world cups or reached the #1 ranking, the thing those teams tend to have above all others is discipline/accuracy. Its a fair bet if Ireland or South Africa get themselves entrench in the opposition 22, they will score, because they hold the ball well and make very few errors. So teams want to employ a claustrophobic rush defence to try and prevent them establishing a beach head. It helps that that method also pressures less accurate teams (Scotland are a great example of this) who attack from one out partly because they do lack that level of discipline.

Having said that, I played Union to a very good level and my niece's husband currently plays League professionally - and it is interesting just how similar the training programs and sessions are between the two in almost all aspects.

 

[HeftyHacker]

Saw an article today about coaches telling players to be the best at the things that need no skill. even if the opposition are better than you, you can be the quickest up off the floor, the best in the kick chase, the best at no end of things that require no higher or lower level of skill, just determination and if you can do that, you can win.

There's certainly something to be said for maximising your own potential. James Haskell might be marmite as a player but he says it a lot. He was never the best at any one thing but he never stopped trying to learn and improve.

If you can get 11 lads like that in your team and chuck in a handful of rugby smarts to guide them around then you've got the basis of a very good team.

I was in a very good school team and we played a lot of the top schools in the North of England. The ones that made it pro weren't the flashy lads but the lads who just went about their work and didn't make mistakes.

The perfect proving point on this was my pal. Hands down the most naturally gifted player I've ever come across, offered pro contract at Sale at 18 but turned it down to go to Loughborough uni. He didn't make the first team in his first year so just gave up rugby with a couple of exceptions in his 20s where he basically glided around at level 5 being the best player on the park for 100 quid a week before losing interest again. Such a waste of talent. If he'd applied himself at all he could have got right to the top. He played against George Ford in an North u18s game vs England 17s and by all accounts had him in his back pocket

 

[Bunkermagnet]

It's so nice to see a thread staying on topic and without any anger or insults.
Well done

 

[Bunkermagnet]

There's certainly something to be said for maximising your own potential. James Haskell might be marmite as a player but he says it a lot. He was never the best at any one thing but he never stopped trying to learn and improve.

If you can get 11 lads like that in your team and chuck in a handful of rugby smarts to guide them around then you've got the basis of a very good team.

I was in a very good school team and we played a lot of the top schools in the North of England. The ones that made it pro weren't the flashy lads but the lads who just went about their work and didn't make mistakes.

The perfect proving point on this was my pal. Hands down the most naturally gifted player I've ever come across, offered pro contract at Sale at 18 but turned it down to go to Loughborough uni. He didn't make the first team in his first year so just gave up rugby with a couple of exceptions in his 20s where he basically glided around at level 5 being the best player on the park for 100 quid a week before losing interest again. Such a waste of talent. If he'd applied himself at all he could have got right to the top. He played against George Ford in an North u18s game vs England 17s and by all accounts had him in his back pocket

Having met him and had a coffee fom him, he was a really nice chap. And a man mountain.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

England currently being outplayed against Samoa. They seriously need to get a hold of themselves.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

England currently being outplayed against Samoa. They seriously need to get a hold of themselves.

Samoa deserved it all day long.
Hopefully someone in charge with England might finally realise that Farrell shouldn't be on the pitch , let alone as a centre which he blatantly isn't.

 

[Captainron]

Fantastic to see the pacific island nations competing properly with the return of their player stock. If they can play more games they will improve massively again!

 

[BrianM]

Scotland

 

[Captainron]

Scotland can’t win this.

 

[HeftyHacker]

Scotland

After 17 phases and going back 15 yards Finn should be getting in the bloody pocket for the drop goal.