Rugby Thread

GB72

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My understanding is that Jones had other rugby interests going on, other than concentrating on England.
He did, including maintaining his ties in Japan. That does not mean that the package agreed on dismissal should not have prevented taking control of another team in the World Cup. A simple placing on garden leave would have prevented that happening and if then wanted to take on another role, the payments would have ended. The whole performance from the RFU in this was pretty poor, from not dealing with this a year ago when the signs were clear to assuming that the Tigers would roll over for a tummy tickle when they came for their coaches to Jones now managing a team who England will likely face in the knockout stages.
 

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He did, including maintaining his ties in Japan. That does not mean that the package agreed on dismissal should not have prevented taking control of another team in the World Cup. A simple placing on garden leave would have prevented that happening and if then wanted to take on another role, the payments would have ended. The whole performance from the RFU in this was pretty poor, from not dealing with this a year ago when the signs were clear to assuming that the Tigers would roll over for a tummy tickle when they came for their coaches to Jones now managing a team who England will likely face in the knockout stages.
By the same token, if Jones was allowed to continue his Japanese connections and input whilst still the England coach, why would they insist on a gardening leave clause?
Also, in some way leaving Jones in place as long as they did allowed Borthwick to prove himself even more. I get as a Tigers fan you didn’t want him to go, but it’s good we have some very good younger English ex players coaching and doing a good job
 
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Liverpoolphil

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Borthwicks first squad

Borthwick announces England squad
England squad announcement
Full England squad:
Forwards
Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 95 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks,1 cap)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 9 caps)
Ben Earl (Saracens, 13 caps)
Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 43 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 72 caps)
Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers, 7 caps)
Jonny Hill (Sale Sharks, 19 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 8 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 62 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 96 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 14 caps)
George McGuigan (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, 2 caps)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, 18 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 56 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 74 caps)
Jack Walker (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Willis (Toulouse, 6 caps)
Backs
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 57 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 101 caps)
Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, 3 caps)
Ollie Hassell-Collins (London Irish, uncapped)
Dan Kelly (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Max Malins (Saracens, 14 caps)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 13 caps)
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
Cadan Murley (Harlequins, uncapped)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 52 caps)
Fin Smith (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 17 caps)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 17 caps)
Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 50 caps)
Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, 7 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 121 caps)
 

GB72

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By the same token, if Jones was allowed to continue his Japanese connections and input whilst still the England coach, why would they insist on a gardening leave clause?
Also, in some way leaving Jones in place as long as they did allowed Borthwick to prove himself even more. I get as a Tigers fan you didn’t want him to go, but it’s good we have some very good younger English ex players coaching and doing a good job
The work in Japan was at club level but I am not sure that shoudl have been allowed either. My point is that rugby is not a rich sport and so we have to watch the pennies. If we have paid Jones out in full and left him free to take a job with a World Cup rival, that is simply poor business management. I can handle Borthwick leaving as and England fan and a Tigers fan but the RFU came to the club expecting us to accept a payment equal to the remainder of his contract and not seek any form of compensation on top of that. Again, poor planning and a massive degree of arrogance.
 

GB72

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Pleased to see Dan Cole back in an England shirt. His fitenss work with Aled at Tigers has massively improved his play and he remians one of the best scrummagers around.

Not so please to see 7 Tigers off on England duty so the match day team will be decimated for the next league match against Northampton. Luckily they will all be available for my next trip to Welford Road on Friday night for the match against Ospreys.
 

GB72

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https://www.englandrugby.com/news/a...height-across-community-rugby-in-england-2023

So waist height the line for a high tackle going forward! Interesting its very clear what the tackler cant do whereas the laws on the ball carrier are still less defined (be interesting to see how they are reffed!)

Feels like the sport is in a lot of trouble to me sadly
Mate, it is sad to say that rugby is in danger of going extinct. Pro clubs are all skint, RFU only cares about filling Twickenham, clubs becoming like county cricket teams, nothing more than nurseries for international development, law suits over concussion that neither the clubs nor the governing bodies can afford to pay out on if they lose, injury fears keeping kids out of the game, the list goes on.

Sadlly within 5 years I can see maybe 4 English teams in a combined competition with the Welsh and Irish Regions and Scottish teams, central contracts for England players and barely an international in sight most weeks. A loss in the law suit and mens rugby could be gone at most if not all levels.
 

fundy

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Mate, it is sad to say that rugby is in danger of going extinct. Pro clubs are all skint, RFU only cares about filling Twickenham, clubs becoming like county cricket teams, nothing more than nurseries for international development, law suits over concussion that neither the clubs nor the governing bodies can afford to pay out on if they lose, injury fears keeping kids out of the game, the list goes on.

Sadlly within 5 years I can see maybe 4 English teams in a combined competition with the Welsh and Irish Regions and Scottish teams, central contracts for England players and barely an international in sight most weeks. A loss in the law suit and mens rugby could be gone at most if not all levels.

Wish I could disagree with some of that, any of it Greg, but its spot on how I see. Actualy think the the last sentence will prove right, just a case of when

Outside chance, a bit like cricket has become T20 dependent that rugby could become 7s dependent? Might be the best potential outcome
 

GB72

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Wish I could disagree with some of that, any of it Greg, but its spot on how I see. Actualy think the the last sentence will prove right, just a case of when

Outside chance, a bit like cricket has become T20 dependent that rugby could become 7s dependent? Might be the best potential outcome
Cannot see 7s geting the crowds, plus that is already ruled by the international game as well. The truely excellent, and usually epicly drunken Middlesex 7s made way for another round of the international 7s (I really miss that tournament). Sadly my vision of what we will end up with is a semi professional league involving some of the exising clubs but nowhere near at the level they are now, 4 pro fanchises (London, South West, Midlands and Maybe one further North but could easily be 3). They will be the clubs that the centrally contracted England players will go to , they will compete in Europe etc and they will fit into the Pro 14. Wales will lose a region and the SA teams will get the elbow to fit them in. If it were not for the success of the French leagues, I could see a European competition played in between internationals replacing everything. That is about the only way I can see rugby growing support and being able to finance itself.

All of this, however, is a moot point if the law suits go against the RFU etc. That will see the game bankrupted at all levels.
 

HeftyHacker

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Cannot see 7s geting the crowds, plus that is already ruled by the international game as well. The truely excellent, and usually epicly drunken Middlesex 7s made way for another round of the international 7s (I really miss that tournament). Sadly my vision of what we will end up with is a semi professional league involving some of the exising clubs but nowhere near at the level they are now, 4 pro fanchises (London, South West, Midlands and Maybe one further North but could easily be 3). They will be the clubs that the centrally contracted England players will go to , they will compete in Europe etc and they will fit into the Pro 14. Wales will lose a region and the SA teams will get the elbow to fit them in. If it were not for the success of the French leagues, I could see a European competition played in between internationals replacing everything. That is about the only way I can see rugby growing support and being able to finance itself.

All of this, however, is a moot point if the law suits go against the RFU etc. That will see the game bankrupted at all levels.
I actually see it somewhat differently, this law change will drive current amateur grassroots players away from the game and I genuinely believe that the RFU won't be bothered by this in the slightest. They will then try and keep people involved in rugby somewhat via touch rugby or other such forms of the game (which I believe theyll fail at) and many community clubs will go to the wall.

I think the RFU are that bothered about the state of the professional game right now that they are willing to sacrifice the community game to save it. I reckon they have accepted that players will stop playing and are hoping that these ex-players will now start going along to watch their local professional club as a supporter, thus giving them the cash injection they so sorely need right now.

Those that can't get to games will hopefully (for the RFU and Premiership Rugby) start to watch more games on TV due to the match times no longer clashing with them playing themselves. This will in turn drive up tv viewing figures and boost the value of the product to broadcasters when tv rights renewal comes along. Again, boosting the coffers of the premiership clubs and RFU.

Of course all of this is a short term fix, if it works at all, and over the coming years there will be no talent coming through as player participation plummets and the game sadly dies away.

As a player myself this has put the nail in coffin in terms of my illustrious (lol) playing career and this will be my final season.

I'm absolutely gutted.
 

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I fail to see how making the amateur game tackle low is going to better the professional game. It would appear someone is trying to remove rugby from the playable list of sports.
 
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I actually see it somewhat differently, this law change will drive current amateur grassroots players away from the game and I genuinely believe that the RFU won't be bothered by this in the slightest. They will then try and keep people involved in rugby somewhat via touch rugby or other such forms of the game (which I believe theyll fail at) and many community clubs will go to the wall.

I think the RFU are that bothered about the state of the professional game right now that they are willing to sacrifice the community game to save it. I reckon they have accepted that players will stop playing and are hoping that these ex-players will now start going along to watch their local professional club as a supporter, thus giving them the cash injection they so sorely need right now.

Those that can't get to games will hopefully (for the RFU and Premiership Rugby) start to watch more games on TV due to the match times no longer clashing with them playing themselves. This will in turn drive up tv viewing figures and boost the value of the product to broadcasters when tv rights renewal comes along. Again, boosting the coffers of the premiership clubs and RFU.

Of course all of this is a short term fix, if it works at all, and over the coming years there will be no talent coming through as player participation plummets and the game sadly dies away.

As a player myself this has put the nail in coffin in terms of my illustrious (lol) playing career and this will be my final season.

I'm absolutely gutted.
Yes ago the league I played in was part of a trial. All our jerseys had a line on them roughly across your nipples and anything above the line was a high tackle. It took some getting used to particularly for people like me who played at 10 and didn't like tackling - my technique was to really just stand in the way. But it did make for better rugby. If you go from watching pro rugby to watch school or club rugby it is a different game and there is a lot less passing and more running with the ball. Lowering the tackle height actually improved our offloading game and I think made it more watchable (not that anyone is watching)
 

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Yes ago the league I played in was part of a trial. All our jerseys had a line on them roughly across your nipples and anything above the line was a high tackle. It took some getting used to particularly for people like me who played at 10 and didn't like tackling - my technique was to really just stand in the way. But it did make for better rugby. If you go from watching pro rugby to watch school or club rugby it is a different game and there is a lot less passing and more running with the ball. Lowering the tackle height actually improved our offloading game and I think made it more watchable (not that anyone is watching)
I get the arguments about it encouraging a game of evasion rather than collision but I actually take a more cynical view of this.

I'm an 110kg, 6'4" centre with a decent enough offloading game and the size and weight to bump people - in attack this change will suit me to the ground.

However in defence I'm somewhat less flexible and slower and with the agility of a container ship. If im covering a 5' 8" bloke and he suddenly decides he's run out of room and cuts back inside and wrong foots me I'm often going to end up just wrapping them up as I can't get low enough, quickly enough to make a round the legs tackle ie, as I do currently (providing I can lay a finger on them).

As a result I think what we'll see here is, where space has run out, people will purposefully start looking to draw penalties and cards by intentionally stepping INTO contact on the hope that they've caught the defender off guard and have been unable to get themselves into the new required tackling position. Its certainly what I'd be looking to do.

If this is reffed to the letter of the law, the games will be a penalty-fest and both teams do incredibly well to play 80 mins with 15 men. I've spoken to a couple of lower level refs since the announcement and they are dreading having to manage it.
 

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Do we have any Welsh fans on here? Some awful stuff coming out of the WRU at the moment relating to how they dealt with female employees. Big changes at the top will surely have to happen.
 

Grizzly

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If this is reffed to the letter of the law, the games will be a penalty-fest and both teams do incredibly well to play 80 mins with 15 men. I've spoken to a couple of lower level refs since the announcement and they are dreading having to manage it.
Even if it is referred to the spirit of the law, I doubt that many recreational sides will manage to make it through 80 minutes and - I have to be honest here - this is the first time in my three years being retired from the game that I have actually been glad of the fact because I fear as you do that there will be players who play for penalties and cards and it will destroy the good spirit that current exists in club rugby.
 
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Even if it is referred to the spirit of the law, I doubt that many recreational sides will manage to make it through 80 minutes and - I have to be honest here - this is the first time in my three years being retired from the game that I have actually been glad of the fact because I fear as you do that there will be players who play for penalties and cards and it will destroy the good spirit that current exists in club rugby.
Really interesting observation about these proposed changes. On the one hand there are people that "know" in newspapers, forums, comment sections etc. They are certain it's the end of the game they love(d). On the other there is 4 years of research from experts and 2 leagues that have been using the rules already that hail it a success. Hard to know who to believe.
 

Grizzly

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Really interesting observation about these proposed changes. On the one hand there are people that "know" in newspapers, forums, comment sections etc. They are certain it's the end of the game they love(d). On the other there is 4 years of research from experts and 2 leagues that have been using the rules already that hail it a success. Hard to know who to believe.
The four years of research centre around perceived safety of the reduction in tackle heights; unfortunately, I think there is a significant flaw in that research in that they have researched injuries amongst elite/professional players, whereas the changes are being imposed on the semi-professional and recreational game. I played the latter for over 20 years after six years on what would now be termed a professional development pathway - and I will say for certain that I had more concussions in those six than the following 20! I couldn't speak with great expertise on the French trial, though my understanding is that it is far from a universal success!
 
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they have researched injuries amongst elite/professional players
I've not read all the research but the small section you wrote that I quote above contains to 2 factual inaccuracies. They were NOT looking at injuries they were looking at all head contact - in fact they classified 24 different types of contact that they tracked. Secondly while the law trials were below elite level (as in the RFU implementation) the research was not. It was from all rugby. The follow up on the head contact though I believe was more focussed specifically on the U20 world cup (the majority of the players from tier 1 countries there are professional)
 
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For anyone interested, the Flats and Shanks podcast had a really good discussion about these changes this week. Their conclusion broadly was that 1) something needs to be done and these changes are something. We won't know if they work until we try - if they do work, great - if they don't we can try something else. 2) The RFU's PR and comms is total disaster.
 
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