Rugby Thread

[GB72]

I think with Worcester the issue is not the viability of the club as it was, but of the club as it is now the owners have asset stripped it. Its sad to see, and ought to be illegal.

Sadly the viability of most rugby clubs is in question. When you look at half of the clubs getting gates of under 8000 and most posting an annual loss there really is a concern over most of them. Worcester was an extreme with bad owners but many more clubs are on the brink.

 

[RichA]

Steve Thompson: Rugby World Cup winner describes impact of dementia
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63131221
44 years old with early onset dementia and worrying about being a burden on his family. Sad.

 

[GB72]

Steve Thompson: Rugby World Cup winner describes impact of dementia
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63131221
44 years old with early onset dementia and worrying about being a burden on his family. Sad.

Sadly, there is currently no answer to this. To keep going, the clubs and the unions need more games and smaller squads whilst to maintain player welfare, the players need less games and smaller squads. The numbers and physical demands of rugby just do not add up at the moment and I fear for its future as a sport and it is the sport I have played and loved since I was 7.

 

[Old Skier]

It was obvious when they thought they could compete in the same way as football without the fan base, tv coverage or the same massive sponsorship it was obvious the model was doomed for failure. More to follow.

 

[GB72]

It was obvious when they thought they could compete in the same way as football without the fan base, tv coverage or the same massive sponsorship it was obvious the model was doomed for failure. More to follow.

I agree that more will follow but I am not sure that it was as obvious from the outset. Even now, with the biggest wages being less than a footballer earns in a week, the market could be there but there are no end of factors that have come in to it. Increating international demands and rest periods means that the big names are not at the clubs for half the season to attract people to come and watch. The RFU does little to promote the club game off solid interest in international rugby. Premiership football has simply crushed all other sports to the extent that they receive next to no media coverage on TV, on the radio or in the press and so are withering. I am actually surprised that the Worcester story was even mentioned on a day with Champions League matches.

Sadly rugby is destined to go the same way as county cricket, a centrally funded feeder system for the England team.

 

[D-S]

A local private school has invested heavily in a golf programme and many parents are selecting this in preference to rugby reportedly due to health concerns. Good for golf, concerning for the future of rugby as schools such as this one provided much talent currently playing.

 

[Bdill93]

Having lost their home, I have never got to know why Worcester City FC turned down a move to share the stadium. They still have quite a big support for non-league.

Rugby players 15 times more likely to develop neurological brain disease.

Neither am I but they do have a fantastic stadium which can be seen from the M5. £6 million unpaid tax bill.

Not a clue - Its all been weird! Worcester FC now play literally round the corner from me (and over the road from my golf club)

Worcester Raiders - once a Saturday league side - were the team that swapped ground with WCFC and then went on to use the astro at Sixways...

Weird dealings!!

 

[fundy]

I agree that more will follow but I am not sure that it was as obvious from the outset. Even now, with the biggest wages being less than a footballer earns in a week, the market could be there but there are no end of factors that have come in to it. Increating international demands and rest periods means that the big names are not at the clubs for half the season to attract people to come and watch. The RFU does little to promote the club game off solid interest in international rugby. Premiership football has simply crushed all other sports to the extent that they receive next to no media coverage on TV, on the radio or in the press and so are withering. I am actually surprised that the Worcester story was even mentioned on a day with Champions League matches.

Sadly rugby is destined to go the same way as county cricket, a centrally funded feeder system for the England team.

I actually think this i the beginning of the end for rugby as we know it sadly. Ultimately a huge part of rugbys appeal is the impact/contact nature of the game and the more they are sanitised the less the sport will appeal, at least to its traditional/current fan base. They have spent several years trying to change the laws to make the game safer but to little effect (some have actually made it far worse) and small tweaks to the laws arent going to make the game as safe for the players as it needs to be from a long term health impact (and associated litigation) perspective. The only way that can/will happen is if you remove most if not all of the current high impact contact situations (tackles, scrums, rucks, mauls)

Add in the huge issues that have arisen from the game becoming a professional sport overnight and the resultant commercialisation leading to far more "stakeholders" all wanting a bigger slice of a limited size pie increasing the financial pressure on almost every club and organisation. Rugby is not alone in facing a lot of these issues, but may be less well placed and run to be able to make the necessary transformation that is going to be needed in a relatively short period of time

Genuinely struggle to see what rugby looks like in 5 or 10 years time, and if it exists as a professional sport at all, in what form it does, as it wont be the current one. A newer format based on 7s with less contact situations engineered through specific law changes? maybe?

 

[GB72]

I actually think this i the beginning of the end for rugby as we know it sadly. Ultimately a huge part of rugbys appeal is the impact/contact nature of the game and the more they are sanitised the less the sport will appeal, at least to its traditional/current fan base. They have spent several years trying to change the laws to make the game safer but to little effect (some have actually made it far worse) and small tweaks to the laws arent going to make the game as safe for the players as it needs to be from a long term health impact (and associated litigation) perspective. The only way that can/will happen is if you remove most if not all of the current high impact contact situations (tackles, scrums, rucks, mauls)

Add in the huge issues that have arisen from the game becoming a professional sport overnight and the resultant commercialisation leading to far more "stakeholders" all wanting a bigger slice of a limited size pie increasing the financial pressure on almost every club and organisation. Rugby is not alone in facing a lot of these issues, but may be less well placed and run to be able to make the necessary transformation that is going to be needed in a relatively short period of time

Genuinely struggle to see what rugby looks like in 5 or 10 years time, and if it exists as a professional sport at all, in what form it does, as it wont be the current one. A newer format based on 7s with less contact situations engineered through specific law changes? maybe?

The only solution that I have come up with is to increase the time that the ball is in play and limit the substitutions. The increase in impact is, in part, to the bulk of the players and they can bulk up because there is now less need to focus on stamina. You make that a focus of training again to be able to last the full match and maybe you reduce player size and lower the level of impact. That is clutching at straws though. If the current law suit is sucessful, that it enough to bankrupt the various unions and the clubs if theim aim for them next. Sadly, I see the game I love on its way out. Simple fact is that rugby is not safe, never has been.

 

[fundy]

The only solution that I have come up with is to increase the time that the ball is in play and limit the substitutions. The increase in impact is, in part, to the bulk of the players and they can bulk up because there is now less need to focus on stamina. You make that a focus of training again to be able to last the full match and maybe you reduce player size and lower the level of impact. That is clutching at straws though. If the current law suit is sucessful, that it enough to bankrupt the various unions and the clubs if theim aim for them next. Sadly, I see the game I love on its way out. Simple fact is that rugby is not safe, never has been.

That ship sailed many years ago sadly (and was one of the laws that have made it worse i was referring to) and actually with some of the recent studies wont be deemed to make the game safe enough. You and I would like to find a solution which encouraged players running into spaces rather than contact, the ball in play far more (and in hand) and the game closely resembling the one we played. Thats not going to cut it in the litigious world this is headed to, where the only acceptable level I expect will be no contact of the type we are used to and that will be the death knell of rugby as a professional sport imo

Soon to follow; boxing, ufc, american fooball, aussie rules football not to mention heading becoming an extension of handball in football, bouncers banned from cricket etc etc

 

[GB72]

That ship sailed many years ago sadly (and was one of the laws that have made it worse i was referring to) and actually with some of the recent studies wont be deemed to make the game safe enough. You and I would like to find a solution which encouraged players running into spaces rather than contact, the ball in play far more (and in hand) and the game closely resembling the one we played. Thats not going to cut it in the litigious world this is headed to, where the only acceptable level I expect will be no contact of the type we are used to and that will be the death knell of rugby as a professional sport imo

Soon to follow; boxing, ufc, american fooball, aussie rules football not to mention heading becoming an extension of handball in football, bouncers banned from cricket etc etc

Sadly, legend that he was, Lomu started the arms race when it came to size and speed and people have been looking to achieve that ever since. Flankers used to be the size that backs are now. As you say, this is coming to all sports and I suspect that football is the only one that can afford the pay outs and keep going like NFL has.

Sadly, what we got with the finance side is too many clubs ramping up prices because the wealthy owners had no concern about actual revienue. If the sport is to continue, the salary cap needs to be set at a percentage of revenue not at an arbitrary number as that will also encourage clubs to attract new fans and investment. Hell, covid nearly took down Tigers and we ahve circa 20000 through the gates every week.

 

[Val]

Worcester sadly wrote cheques they couldn't afford. Best part of £750k a year for 2 Scottish Lions sored their wage bill. Sad for fans, players and club employees. Owners should hang their heads in shame which sadly they haven't, blamed everyone but themselves.

 

[Grizzly]

The only solution that I have come up with is to increase the time that the ball is in play and limit the substitutions. The increase in impact is, in part, to the bulk of the players and they can bulk up because there is now less need to focus on stamina. You make that a focus of training again to be able to last the full match and maybe you reduce player size and lower the level of impact. That is clutching at straws though. If the current law suit is sucessful, that it enough to bankrupt the various unions and the clubs if theim aim for them next. Sadly, I see the game I love on its way out. Simple fact is that rugby is not safe, never has been.

You are spot in here.

When I was 17/18 and played at what became the Falcons, I was considered huge at 6 foot 3 and about 17 stone (I played full back). Now, I would be average at best, and likely dwarfed by players whose body fat percentage is lower than I could ever have managed. The same applies through the pack - and crucially, there is no longer the expectation that many of these big beasts would have to last the 80 minutes - even in club rugby it has become the expected norm that you will use a full bench (part of the reason I managed to keep going in to my 40s!).

So, if you married up an increase in the in play time (suggested measures? The equivalent of a play clock for both sides to be ready for set pieces, replacing reset/no fault scrums with a free kick to the side with the put in, clearing up some of the more arcane rules to reduce technical penalties) with a reduction in the number of substitutes on the bench, and on the number of non-injury related substitutions, even to zero, would make a huge different in making the game safer, more exciting, and also cheaper at the top level because you would require smaller squads.

 

[Grizzly]

Worcester sadly wrote cheques they couldn't afford. Best part of £750k a year for 2 Scottish Lions sored their wage bill. Sad for fans, players and club employees. Owners should hang their heads in shame which sadly they haven't, blamed everyone but themselves.

That won't have helped, but my understanding is that they would only - if "only" is a concept when we are talking about seven figure sums - be short what the pandemic cost them and therefore a viable bet for a new investor were it not for the fact that the owners have effectively gifted themselves facilities and tracts of land into shell companies from the original club.

 

[azazel]

As someone with the typical Six Nations and World Cup-related passing interest in rugby, are other countries encountering the same problems? I would imagine the safety elements would apply worldwide but are finances an issue in France, NZ, Oz etc?

 

[Grizzly]

Finances are a different issue in the SANZAR countries - their issue is more about their ability to match the levels of salary on offer in the Northern Hemisphere, particularly in France.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

That was a really tough watch last night, absolutely desperate thing to have to go through and knowing what's in the near future for him and his family.
As an RL fan many of the same issues will come up but the scrum training he said he had to endure was crazy.
As a bare minimum the advisory contact training recommendation should be globally mandatory (so no country gains an on field advantage) and some sort of fund to look after this generation should be established.

 

[Robster59]

You are spot in here.

When I was 17/18 and played at what became the Falcons, I was considered huge at 6 foot 3 and about 17 stone (I played full back). Now, I would be average at best, and likely dwarfed by players whose body fat percentage is lower than I could ever have managed. The same applies through the pack - and crucially, there is no longer the expectation that many of these big beasts would have to last the 80 minutes - even in club rugby it has become the expected norm that you will use a full bench (part of the reason I managed to keep going in to my 40s!).

So, if you married up an increase in the in play time (suggested measures? The equivalent of a play clock for both sides to be ready for set pieces, replacing reset/no fault scrums with a free kick to the side with the put in, clearing up some of the more arcane rules to reduce technical penalties) with a reduction in the number of substitutes on the bench, and on the number of non-injury related substitutions, even to zero, would make a huge different in making the game safer, more exciting, and also cheaper at the top level because you would require smaller squads.

Like @funkycoldmedina I'm also a Rugby League fan and the pressures and impacts that the RL players face are, IMHO, less than that faced by those of the Rugby Union forwards. If you watch most Rugby Union games, it's very forward dominated. Lots of rucks and mauls and players driving in hard, often with their heads. It's a different game from when I used to play years ago. And the fact that there are so many interchanges in the game these days (both codes) means that players do not have to have sufficient stamina to last the full 80 minutes. That leads to heavier players with more impact. I can't see, for example, a player the size of Shane Williams playing International Rugby with his size these days.
I was watching an old RL Cup Final between Widnes and Wigan from 1984 and there were no substitutions. All the players played the full 80 minutes. That wouldn't happen these days.
Rugby League pressures are different, the ball is in play for longer and the impacts are lower. You can see the major difference in the size and build of the forwards between the two codes. Of course, there is still the chance of long-term damage, and the situation with Rob Burrow is tragic.

 

[GB72]

Like @funkycoldmedina I'm also a Rugby League fan and the pressures and impacts that the RL players face are, IMHO, less than that faced by those of the Rugby Union forwards. If you watch most Rugby Union games, it's very forward dominated. Lots of rucks and mauls and players driving in hard, often with their heads. It's a different game from when I used to play years ago. And the fact that there are so many interchanges in the game these days (both codes) means that players do not have to have sufficient stamina to last the full 80 minutes. That leads to heavier players with more impact. I can't see, for example, a player the size of Shane Williams playing International Rugby with his size these days.
I was watching an old RL Cup Final between Widnes and Wigan from 1984 and there were no substitutions. All the players played the full 80 minutes. That wouldn't happen these days.
Rugby League pressures are different, the ball is in play for longer and the impacts are lower. You can see the major difference in the size and build of the forwards between the two codes. Of course, there is still the chance of long-term damage, and the situation with Rob Burrow is tragic.

Those days were truely hardcore. I have played only a few games of league and there is no way I could have kept up with the intensity for 80 minutes. The stamina needed was immense.

Agree with what you say. The emphasis in union has become about 'winning' the tackle or the breadown which demands massive impact. The whole nature of union needs to change to make it in any way viable. Clearing out etc needs to stop. Sadly lowering the tackle height helps the person being tackled but it puts more risk of the tackler making contact wiht a knee or hip (which was how I got my one and only concussion).

Sadly, rugby does not have the funding to provide long term support for those suffering as a result, the money is just not there at professional level and at club and lower level. I feel for every player suffering as there for the grace of God go I.

 

[Grizzly]

Like @funkycoldmedina That leads to heavier players with more impact. I can't see, for example, a player the size of Shane Williams playing International Rugby with his size these days.

Cheslin Kolbe is probably the smallest international nowadays, not sure he's quite as diminutive as the Welsh Wizard though!