Roll Up Group Handicaps

[Swango1980]

There is a fundamental difference. With a competition score, I try to achieve my best score. With casual golf, the rare swindle included, I dont try. I am distracted by the chat. I will work on my swing. I take on risky shots that I wouldnt if it were a 'real' round. I take litttle or no interest in how good or bad my score is. I am just out for the walk and the company. In a competition, my score does matter to me, I take it seriously as a challenge to finish as high as I can, and ideally, get my handicap down. The two approaches are fundamentally different.

I get they may well be the same in the rules. But this is where rules have diverged from the real world. It is the rules, not players, that need to come back into line.

This is an approach I have never seen myself. Having played in hundreds of roll ups over the years, and having played in even more social rounds with a small group of mates where we stick £2 in the pot (or play for coffee), I have never noticed one person that doesn't have the intention of trying to play well. It doesn't always work out how they hoped. But, I've never seen people take up to half a day to play golf, and just mess around with no intent to try and play well (unless they are specifically coming out to practice, hit lots of balls, etc)

To me, it just sounds like an excuse to justify not putting in scores. There are a few people out there that seem extremely concerned about putting in GP scores (or even scores that are in a competition, but not a competition run directly by your Club), and I'm not quite sure why? It is like somehow they think they are some sort of Tiger Woods machine who can give 100% focus to the job in hand whilst playing in a "club run" competition, but when they play in a roll up type competition (perhaps restricted to a large group of mates), suddenly they want to turn into Mr Blobby and just have pure fun.

I mean, imagine being "distracted by chat". That makes it sound like you'd be a nightmare to play with in a club run competition

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Among other things, the number of people who turn up cold (little or no warm-up or practice) on the first tee in a comp says different.

Not everyone of course

Our practise area is certainly more busy before a comp , even more so the bigger club comps

 

[Dunesman]

But just to look at this from the other perspective, you must get that its a WHS not a DHS

I am like many. It comes back to the root cause for the change in policy, who defined it and why. Why are the handful administering UK golf trying to impose a behaviour change that we didnt ask for and were happy with our way of doing things. There is a very unsavoury authoritarian flavour to what is going on.

 

[Swango1980]

Again it’s all club run comps you are talking about

As opposed to your generic social run swindle that a bunch of mates sort out between

Maybe you are wired to just not understand the difference with people just wanting to enjoy a bit of social golf with their mates without a care of what the WHS and their foot soldiers say

You started by implying a competition can only be run by a club and open to all members. Now you are just changing it to a swindle is for golfers who are only doing it socially and are worried about WHS footsoldiers?

In all honesty, I would find it difficult to trust any golfers who are worried about WHS footsoldiers. I would question WHY they don't want their scores appearing on WHS, and I wouldn't trust the argument "we are only having fun, we don't try". I wouldn't be surprised if these people also go round occasionally and shoot 36+ points in their swindle, and then try and convince people they don't take those rounds seriously.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

You started by implying a competition can only be run by a club and open to all members. Now you are just changing it to a swindle is for golfers who are only doing it socially and are worried about WHS footsoldiers?

In all honesty, I would find it difficult to trust any golfers who are worried about WHS footsoldiers. I would question WHY they don't want their scores appearing on WHS, and I wouldn't trust the argument "we are only having fun, we don't try". I wouldn't be surprised if these people also go round occasionally and shoot 36+ points in their swindle, and then try and convince people they don't take those rounds seriously.

Trust ? I trust every single player in the swindles

Many swindles I play in are there for social golf in a relaxed environment , some have a form of HC cuts , some don’t , most play gimmies some don’t

There is the ability for people to put the card in if they wish and people do

Some it appears to believe that every tee someone tees up it should count towards their handicap

Having seen too many people manipulate their handicap using GP scores I’ll certainly have more trust in those that don’t see the need to put in a GP score every time they play

And as for the WhS footsoldiers , they can enjoy bowing down to every whim and wish of WHS and continue to regurgitate rules - I’ll prefer to have a life and enjoy my golf

 

[Swango1980]

Trust ? I trust every single player in the swindles

Many swindles I play in are there for social golf in a relaxed environment , some have a form of HC cuts , some don’t , most play gimmies some don’t

There is the ability for people to put the card in if they wish and people do

Some it appears to believe that every tee someone tees up it should count towards their handicap

Having seen too many people manipulate their handicap using GP scores I’ll certainly have more trust in those that don’t see the need to put in a GP score every time they play

And as for the WhS footsoldiers , they can enjoy bowing down to every whim and wish of WHS and continue to regurgitate rules - I’ll prefer to have a life and enjoy my golf

You're obsessed with WHS footsoldiers. I'm not. I think I'm the one that is pretty relaxed about everything, whereas it seems to be something that is quite the concern for you.

How on earth is a swindle not a "relaxed environment" if you are going to put your score in for handicap? People really need to chill out if putting a card in for handicap is going to be something that stresses them out. I really feel for them when they have to play competitions, all that stress they are under. I'm surprised they even bother playing competitions if that worries them.

If more swindles simply put in their cards in the same way they would do in club competitions, then there would be less accusation of some golfers manipulating their handicap anyway. As I said before, if golfers can choose, then you'll end up getting some golfers who frequently do very very well in their swindles, never put those scores in, and you will have many other golfers moaning and complaining that their official handicap is wrong, and they always do well when they know their score won't touch their record. This has been a common complaint since I started playing regular golf in 2005, and I'm sure long before then as well.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

You're obsessed with WHS footsoldiers. I'm not. I think I'm the one that is pretty relaxed about everything, whereas it seems to be something that is quite the concern for you.

How on earth is a swindle not a "relaxed environment" if you are going to put your score in for handicap? People really need to chill out if putting a card in for handicap is going to be something that stresses them out. I really feel for them when they have to play competitions, all that stress they are under. I'm surprised they even bother playing competitions if that worries them.

If more swindles simply put in their cards in the same way they would do in club competitions, then there would be less accusation of some golfers manipulating their handicap anyway. As I said before, if golfers can choose, then you'll end up getting some golfers who frequently do very very well in their swindles, never put those scores in, and you will have many other golfers moaning and complaining that their official handicap is wrong, and they always do well when they know their score won't touch their record. This has been a common complaint since I started playing regular golf in 2005, and I'm sure long before then as well.

I’m not sure why some are struggling to understand that there are people that see competitions and social swindles as very different for them and how they approach and feel

And yes some won’t play in some competitions because they don’t enjoy it , some do get overly stressed by playing in comp golf , some do get stressed by having a card in their hand that will affect their handicap - that’s very much human nature

There is a reason why we reduced the amount of weekends that were blocked for comps

Because some just want to have a bit of fun

And most of the time those swindles will gimmies and pick and place through the green etc - because that’s more relaxed

And the recent manipulation of HCs has been due to people using GP scorecards as a way to increase their HC

I’m very glad the people I play golf with a very much in the same mindset of seeing the two forms of golf very much separate and more than happy to keep it that way

 

[Swango1980]

I’m not sure why some are struggling to understand that there are people that see competitions and social swindles as very different for them and how they approach and feel

And yes some won’t play in some competitions because they don’t enjoy it

There is a reason why we reduced the amount of weekends that were blocked for comps

Because some just want to have a bit of fun

And most of the time those swindles will gimmies and pick and place through the green etc - because that’s more relaxed

And the recent manipulation of HCs has been due to people using GP scorecards as a way to increase their HC

I’m very glad the people I play golf with a very much in the same mindset of seeing the two forms of golf very much separate and more than happy to keep it that way

You keep shifting the goalposts all over the place, it is impossible to have any sort of consistent and sensible discussion with you. This effectively started as a conversation as roll ups / swindles, where effectively people have a score and end up on a leaderboard of sorts. There are many of these, and so I simply said it would be a good idea for Clubs to assist these players in putting this scores on their record as Competition scores. That in turn would help them when entering comps that require a certain number of competition scores on their record.

All you have done is completely change the discussion into one about players getting stressed out about having rounds touch their handicap. You have tried to define, and then redefine what you think a competition is. You have talked about people not enjoying it, and also not entering club competitions because they don't enjoy it. You have talked about people not playing by the required rules, such as gimmes and pick and place through the green (I assume you mean General Area).

Not for one second have I ever said golfers need to put their scores in if many of these things are happening. If they are playing gimmes, no need to put score in (but if there is an overall leaderboard, I'd hope to be in the group of guys that give 6 foot putts rather than the group that give nothing). If the course is not set up to be acceptable for handicap, then scores will obviously not go to your handicap either. If you and your mates have organised to go out one morning, or even if you typically meet up once a week, I'm not saying you should be asked to put scores in. You might play a bit of match play, you might pick your ball up if your partner is going to win the hole, etc.

So, you are welcome to continue playing with your mates, and have all the fun you want. No problem with that. But, for groups that organise roll ups, swindles (or whatever else they are called) throughout the week, and are playing a singles strokeplay competition amongst themselves, then I see no reason why their scores can't count for handicap, and thus be entered into the system like any other comp. Maybe these groups are only for the brave and thick skinned golfers, who are able to have fun whilst under the enormous pressure of knowing their score will go on their handicap record. But, I have faith that most golfers are brave enough to deal with this. Certainly, the roll ups at my club seem as popular as ever, and I've not heard of any splinter roll ups being created by golfers who can't deal with the stress.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

@Swango1980 @Arthur Wedge this bickering is killing the thread. Please leave it alone and move on.

 

[Orikoru]

@Swango1980 @Arthur Wedge this bickering is killing the thread. Please leave it alone and move on.

You must have that exact phrase saved in Notepad for easy copy and pasting by now.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I am like many. It comes back to the root cause for the change in policy, who defined it and why. Why are the handful administering UK golf trying to impose a behaviour change that we didnt ask for and were happy with our way of doing things. There is a very unsavoury authoritarian flavour to what is going on.

Because they are very much out of touch when it comes to golf at a club

There is prob also a bit of sledgehammer on a nut when it comes to finding a way to combat handicap manipulation and this is prob a way they think can combat it where as it’s prob gives people the fuel to manipulate further

The good news is that clubs will be very much reluctant to enforce anything and also aware they are very much powerless to what a bunch of guys do on the course

 

[Swango1980]

You must have that exact phrase saved in Notepad for easy copy and pasting by now.

Although I'd like to think the first name in the sentence is just edited to whoever it applies to on any given day

 

[Orikoru]

Although I'd like to think the first name in the sentence is just edited to whoever it applies to on any given day

Nope. It's always you two.

Edit: Well sometimes it's Mel.

 

[Tashyboy]

I am like many. It comes back to the root cause for the change in policy, who defined it and why. Why are the handful administering UK golf trying to impose a behaviour change that we didnt ask for and were happy with our way of doing things. There is a very unsavoury authoritarian flavour to what is going on.

Take a bow son.
If it’s not broke don’t fix it. There are enough problems and divisions in golf without worrying what stan, Sid, Bert and Fragger are doing in there roll up swindle for 10p a hole and what rules that are playing to.

 

[RichA]

I don't

This is an approach I have never seen myself. Having played in hundreds of roll ups over the years, and having played in even more social rounds with a small group of mates where we stick £2 in the pot (or play for coffee), I have never noticed one person that doesn't have the intention of trying to play well. It doesn't always work out how they hoped. But, I've never seen people take up to half a day to play golf, and just mess around with no intent to try and play well (unless they are specifically coming out to practice, hit lots of balls, etc)

To me, it just sounds like an excuse to justify not putting in scores. There are a few people out there that seem extremely concerned about putting in GP scores (or even scores that are in a competition, but not a competition run directly by your Club), and I'm not quite sure why? It is like somehow they think they are some sort of Tiger Woods machine who can give 100% focus to the job in hand whilst playing in a "club run" competition, but when they play in a roll up type competition (perhaps restricted to a large group of mates), suddenly they want to turn into Mr Blobby and just have pure fun.

I mean, imagine being "distracted by chat". That makes it sound like you'd be a nightmare to play with in a club run competition

I don't get this at all.
If it's a comp I'll try my best.
But most of my GP rounds are largely a four hour social with pals. I won't always remember where I've hit my ball, never mind how many strokes I've taken.
We aren't all the same.

 

[D-S]

Not reading through 10 pages of this and apologies if it has been asked.

But why have EG not made there views or rulings more vocal on the site etc. personally I think they should keep there nose out.

This is a good point.

As I and others have pointed out, this was a key topic brought up by the presenter and a reasonable long time spent on it. Quite a few questions were asked from the floor, including from me as I’ve mentioned earlier in the thread. EG representatives were crystal clear and strong in their views on the matter and sanctions if not followed. Again as detailed, this included possible withdrawal of handicap if players using a non WHS handicap for roll ups/swindles even if the format was not acceptable for handicapping e.g. Bowmaker.

However I have just checked the slides from the presentation which have just been received and there is no mention of it anywhere. Though there were 33 slides including results of the WHS survey and on Handicap Manipulation.

 

[2blue]

I am like many. It comes back to the root cause for the change in policy, who defined it and why. Why are the handful administering UK golf trying to impose a behaviour change that we didnt ask for and were happy with our way of doing things. There is a very unsavoury authoritarian flavour to what is going on.

As the H/cap is there for leisurely social competition as well as those butt-clenching-teeth-grinding competitions, feared by many, it makes sense that cards from both will provide the fairest result.... get on with it, enjoy playing in the various environments & submit those cards.... stop trying to manufacture things.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

This is a good point.

As I and others have pointed out, this was a key topic brought up by the presenter and a reasonable long time spent on it. Quite a few questions were asked from the floor, including from me as I’ve mentioned earlier in the thread. EG representatives were crystal clear and strong in their views on the matter and sanctions if not followed. Again as detailed, this included possible withdrawal of handicap if players using a non WHS handicap for roll ups/swindles even if the format was not acceptable for handicapping e.g. Bowmaker.

However I have just checked the slides from the presentation which have just been received and there is no mention of it anywhere. Though there were 33 slides including results of the WHS survey and on Handicap Manipulation.

At the end of the day - how can the clubs enforce ensure this happens , they can’t

All a swindle will do if they don’t want to go down these lines will be

Gimmies at a certain length - then it’s no longer acceptable for scores and the club are powerless to stop them

 

[Swango1980]

I don't

I don't get this at all.
If it's a comp I'll try my best.
But most of my GP rounds are largely a four hour social with pals. I won't always remember where I've hit my ball, never mind how many strokes I've taken.
We aren't all the same.

My mindset is most likely different between teeing up in Round 2 of the Club Champs (if I had a good first round) compared to teeing up in the April Stableford. I get the point that a golfers mindset is not going to be identically the same for every single round of golf. I'd be the same, in the sense that going round and playing in a 4 ball with mates will be a different experience to playing in a board comp with guys I don't know, and who are maybe not very chatty. That being said, I still go out and try and play well (I'm not trying to hit bad shots, or trying to hit a driver into a 100 yard par 3 for a laugh, and other weird shots like that, when playing in a roll up). And, I've never seen any sign of other golfers not trying to do well during roll ups / swindles. Unless the round is already dead, but I've seen golfers act the same way in club competitions when they are no longer in contention.

But, again to clarify. I'm absolutely not suggesting for one second that a group of pals meeting up for a round of golf must submit scores for handicap, the discussion seemed to morph into that debate. That is very different, and I would never request golfers must do that.

I was simply saying that many clubs seem to have certain times during the week, where they run a roll up / swindle type event for all or groups of members. They all play singles stroke play and there may be 12-30+ of them. So, would it not be a good idea for a club to assist these groups in processing their results like a normal competition? That way, these golfers will have more "competition" rounds on their record, and it will help them if they ever try to get into other competitions with entry requirements related to competition rounds. It would be frustrating if a golfer played in a roll up every Thursday, but all those scores went in as GP scores and they were not permitted to enter certain comps. That golfer may try and argue that "what is the difference between the competition in the roll up and a competition at the weekend?"

To add, I'm also not suggesting a club should look for patterns of all golfers playing, to see if any meet up regularly and should be treated as competitions and scores going in for handicap. Just to recognise any key periods during the week where there is a clear form of competition organised by members such as a roll up / swindle, and treating that officially as a competition will benefit the members. It certainly seems to work very well at our place, and I'm sure it would work very well at other clubs

 

[garyinderry]

This thread should see us through now to the good weather. Carry on.