Roll Up Group Handicaps

[AussieKB]

I assume you mean April 2028.

Why will they need updates ? I thought WHS was be all and end all.

 

[RichA]

Recognize that I'm an "outsider" in this discussion, not part of GB&I. Our "groups" have "competitions" (maybe could be called roll-ups or swindles?) every Monday, Tuesday, Thurs, Friday and Saturday. Not the same players every day, but each day is a subset of about 45 members. There could be 8 to 24 players each day. We do not have set aside tee times, we all get on our computers to book tee times when the tee sheet opens 7 days in advance. If we get more tee times than we feel we need, the extras are cancelled very quickly, usually within about 5 minutes. Other groups at the club do the same, and we all know what times each group prefers. Sometimes there is "swapping" of times between groups to that tee times for the groups can be continuous. The organizer will make the draw from those that are playing, sends it out to the players and the golf shop. Our groups always play best two or three out of four, or a Stableford version if there are three-balls in the mix. Each day we each throw $5 into the pot, to be awarded to the winners and runners-up on the day - presented while having a beer after the round. Yes, we do have gimmes within the groups, "within the leather", carefully regulated by the players. Contrary to what some posters on this site believe and extol, we don't have mulligans, breakfast balls or free drops if a ball is lost or out of bounds! There are two nationally certified referees in the larger group who willingly assist/educate on Rules. Everyone is trying their best (at least until their score for the hole wouldn't be counted), and we do post all of these scores for handicapping purposes. Our system does not differentiate between competition scores and general play cards - we do post scores nearly every time we play. Some years I have posted over 100 scores.
There is "peer review" amongst our groups, players are "called out" and humoursly ridiculed if their handicap index gets above what the group feels is their normal, and congratulations for good rounds. Don't think there is anyone in these groups who is not focused on achieving a lower handicap index.
Bandits or sandbaggers are not welcome.
My point is that I don't see why there is such consternation and anxiety about "competition" scores - the system is designed for all scores played by the Rules of golf and handicapping, whether "general/casual play" or "competition" (maybe excluding what we call "hit and giggle" play)

I can't find any reference to carefully regulated within the leather gimmes being acceptable in the rules of golf.

 

[Slab]

I guess all they’re saying is, if you’re gonna run group comps that’re eligible for handicap submission then don’t mess about with the WHS player handicaps and submit the scores

If its not eligible its not for submission … and who cares what handicap players use

 

[Dunesman]

To attempt to summarise the situation :

Short term.
a) If your roll up plays gimmees or modified handicaps, you can continue to do as you are doing, as your rounds are not valid for EG/WHS purposes
b) If your roll up is played by WHS handicap rules and R&A golf rules, then, as your rounds are counting, then you must submit all scores for your handicap.

If you are in group b, you cannot niw move to group a, as that would be a deliberate action to take your roll up outside the EG rules, which is not permitted.

Longer term.
We will all be moving to align with the USA and so the full intention and consistency of a world handicap system will be realised. Average handicap will drop about three shots here when that settles.
But we arent culturally ready here yet for widespread breakfast balls, gimmes, and favourable drops. Ironically this is those most sticklers for the rules who are holding this up. But in time, guidance on these looser practices will be given, and then we will truly be playing competitive golf and more casual swindles and accepting them as the same. And so happy, US style, to put cards in at every possible opportunity. But midsets have some way to go yet to close that gap.

 

[wjemather]

Why will they need updates ? I thought WHS was be all and end all.

There is always room for improvement, so of course there will be updates - no different to all handicap systems that went before. The updates are scheduled on a 4 year cycle.

 

[wjemather]

I can't find any reference to carefully regulated within the leather gimmes being acceptable in the rules of golf.

Concessions are covered in the rules, however their length is not regulated.
When playing in some jurisdictions, where strokes are conceded, Most Likely Score is used for handicapping.

 

[Backache]

Hmmm...I'm maybe going against the grain here...and (al)most certainly I am in the context of the rollup I play in...but I'm not sure it's that hard for one or more members of a group to say to another "...you can have that for rollup purposes - but remember for your card you need to hole out" (very soon I suspect the second part of that would not be required). And that statement can be proceeded with whatever jesting and jollity the group wishes to indulge in. They then just shut up for the ten seconds it takes for the player to hole out - and as it's most often going to be a toddler the likelihood of him missing is low...besides...in the context of a round the number of missed tiddlers is going to be small.

You're rather missing my point.
It is quite possible to play to the RoG and on occasions someone wants to put in a GP card and they do
But it is casual golf and generally fairly quick golf.
The whole ethos is for relaxed fun, our rounds are significantly quicker than medal rounds.
If people were playing for HCap under RoG some would take a lot longer over their rounds and the whole ethos would be changed because some one wants to control what we are doing socially.
It's over controlling nonsense.

 

[Backache]

Has anyone actually asked golfers if they want their social golf regulated by the rules of handicapping?
Golfers pay for Golf England they do not subside golfers.

 

[Backache]

Concessions are covered in the rules, however their length is not regulated.
When playing in some jurisdictions, where strokes are conceded, Most Likely Score is used for handicapping.

So we're going to makey up scores for handicapping.
How very proud they must be of their new system.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You're rather missing my point.
It is quite possible to play to the RoG and on occasions someone wants to put in a GP card and they do
But it is casual golf and generally fairly quick golf.
The whole ethos is for relaxed fun, our rounds are significantly quicker than medal rounds.
If people were playing for HCap under RoG some would take a lot longer over their rounds and the whole ethos would be changed because some one wants to control what we are doing socially.
It's over controlling nonsense.

I get it..absolutely. I’m wondering whether your casual, relaxed and fairly quick golf is played in a group of 24-32. Plus we complete and submit a card to the organiser and starting from this Saturday my club has allocated us a set of tee times. It’s a friendly group playing a roll up/swindle, but the golf is competitive and generally taken quite seriously - especially within each four ball.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

To attempt to summarise the situation :

Short term.
a) If your roll up plays gimmees or modified handicaps, you can continue to do as you are doing, as your rounds are not valid for EG/WHS purposes
b) If your roll up is played by WHS handicap rules and R&A golf rules, then, as your rounds are counting, then you must submit all scores for your handicap.

If you are in group b, you cannot niw move to group a, as that would be a deliberate action to take your roll up outside the EG rules, which is not permitted.

Longer term.
We will all be moving to align with the USA and so the full intention and consistency of a world handicap system will be realised. Average handicap will drop about three shots here when that settles.
But we arent culturally ready here yet for widespread breakfast balls, gimmes, and favourable drops. Ironically this is those most sticklers for the rules who are holding this up. But in time, guidance on these looser practices will be given, and then we will truly be playing competitive golf and more casual swindles and accepting them as the same. And so happy, US style, to put cards in at every possible opportunity. But midsets have some way to go yet to close that gap.

But does the nature, size and format of how a roll up is setup and managed, mean that for some roll ups they must then be played by WHS handicap rules and R&A golf rules and all cards submitted.

 

[Backache]

I get it..absolutely. I’m wondering whether your casual, relaxed and fairly quick golf is played in a group of 24-32. Plus we complete and submit a card to the organiser and starting from this Saturday my club has allocated us a set of tee times. It’s a friendly roll up/swindle, but the golf is competitive and generally taken quite seriously.

That's great and if you enjoy it , it's even better. I have no desire to control what works well for you.
Why in the name of the wee man does anyone wish to control what we do in our group, how many shots are given etc
It's no one's business .
Notably social golf and roll ups have become more popular and competitions less popular since WHS was introduced, why should it be inflicted on our social rounds.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

That's great and if you enjoy it , it's even better. I have no desire to control what works well for you.
Why in the name of the wee man does anyone wish to control what we do in our group, how many shots are given etc
It's no one's business .
Notably social golf and roll ups have become more popular and competitions less popular since WHS was introduced, why should it be inflicted on our social rounds.

Indeed - and certainly our clubs main midweek roll up field has dropped from 60+ to 40ish since the club asked (required) the cards to be submitted. My question though is more to do with whether or not the club has any real say or choice in the matter - if EG mandates it then club must compile.

And if I have understood what those attending EG seminars on the matter are saying, non-compliance could result in its members handicaps being annulled? If that threat is real and not just posturing then no club is going to risk that.

 

[RichA]

Concessions are covered in the rules, however their length is not regulated.
When playing in some jurisdictions, where strokes are conceded, Most Likely Score is used for handicapping.

I was under the impression that we had to hole out to score anything better than a net double bogey in a round that's being submitted for handicapping purposes.
I've never knowingly played with anyone who thought otherwise. Among our group, the guys who like to submit their GP rounds hole out even if the putt has been given in any social match that's taking place.

 

[Slab]

Has anyone actually asked golfers if they want their social golf regulated by the rules of handicapping?
Golfers pay for Golf England they do not subside golfers.

I think that’s the crux of the thread points of view, what is social golf?

Is a group playing a round of golf on a valid measured course, to the RoG, with protected tee times, with an entry/participation fee, with winner/placings & (cash) prizes… still social (non-comp) golf?

Just because entry was organised by Big Eric on whatsapp with the draw done on practice green, instead of committee member Wee Eric using an entry list on another app… What’s the difference?
Its easy to see how similar they really are… and if they really are one in the same why is it one round ‘must’ count to handicap and the other shouldn’t ?

I don’t agree with the hard-line stance of insisting on compliance etc but an encouragement to not mess with the CH and submit cards seems fine

 

[Backache]

Indeed - and certainly our clubs main midweek roll up field has dropped from 60+ to 40ish since the club asked (required) the cards to be submitted. My question though is more to do with whether or not the club has any real say or choice in the matter - if EG mandates it then club must compile.

And if I have understood what those attending EG seminars on the matter are saying, non-compliance could result in its members handicaps being annulled? If that threat is real and not just posturing then no club is going to risk that.

Clubs collectively and golfers pay for EG they will not dare to do this and if they did they are even bigger idiots than they appear.

 

[AussieKB]

Never under estimate small people in big positions......

 

[wjemather]

I was under the impression that we had to hole out to score anything better than a net double bogey in a round that's being submitted for handicapping purposes.
I've never knowingly played with anyone who thought otherwise. Among our group, the guys who like to submit their GP rounds hole out even if the putt has been given in any social match that's taking place.

In GB&I, we do, as only individual stroke play rounds are authorised, and MLS isn't used.
I believe @rulie is in Canada, where more formats are authorised and MLS is in use.

 

[Backache]

I think that’s the crux of the thread points of view, what is social golf?

Is a group playing a round of golf on a valid measured course, to the RoG, with protected tee times, with an entry/participation fee, with winner/placings & (cash) prizes… still social (non-comp) golf?

Just because entry was organised by Big Eric on whatsapp with the draw done on practice green, instead of committee member Wee Eric using an entry list on another app… What’s the difference?
Its easy to see how similar they really are… and if they really are one in the same why is it one round ‘must’ count to handicap and the other shouldn’t ?

I don’t agree with the hard-line stance of insisting on compliance etc but an encouragement to not mess with the CH and submit cards seems fine

Well if the thread on swindles roll ups etc is to be believed the format varies massively and many of those do not apply to many groups. Trying to introduce some kind of spurious conformity to a myriad of different formats informally arranged to suit local preferences for the sake of some one in EG is the tail waggng the dog.

 

[Slab]

Well if the thread on swindles roll ups etc is to be believed the format varies massively and many of those do not apply to many groups. Trying to introduce some kind of spurious conformity to a myriad of different formats informally arranged to suit local preferences for the sake of some one in EG is the tail waggng the dog.

I agree, don't force conformity, but if the conformity is already there and all conditions are in place anyway, then why not?

I'd much rather see a scenario that if Big Eck wins 2 weeks running with 44/42pts that his WHS handicap comes down rather than just his swindle handicap, leaving him free to maybe clean up in the monthly medal!