Roll Up Group Handicaps

[Arthur Wedge]

I'm not sure what you are getting at???

The guys in this group arrange to play every weekend when there is no comp on. They are all mates, there are a large number of them, and they play together. It has nothing to do with being a Club Competition open to all.

However, as they organise to play every weekend, the Club has enabled them to use howdidido to enter all their scores and publish their results. So, as far as WHS is concerned, it is surely a competition round, not a GP round?

As I said

If the club are setting it up on the system as a qualifying competition then it would a comp score on their record

Or it’s set up as a non qualifying and they are just using it to publish their results which can be done

But for me to run qualifying competitions on the course imo should be open for all to enter

what you’re saying happens imo is not a club run competition so shouldn’t be a competition score on their handicap

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Entry to a competition may be restricted based on any number of things, including to a specific group of players.
One of the most common examples would be comps restricted to paid up members of the seniors section, where that section operates as a society within the club; seniors who are not members of the society cannot enter.

Then it’s a section of a club not a swindle

 

[Swango1980]

As I said

If the club are setting it up on the system as a qualifying competition then it would a comp score on their record

Or it’s set up as a non qualifying and they are just using it to publish their results which can be done

But for me to run qualifying competitions on the course imo should be open for all to enter

what you’re saying happens imo is not a club run competition so shouldn’t be a competition score on their handicap

I assume this is just a rule in your head?

It isn't something that is an official recommendation anywhere?

 

[IanM]

Blimey...some folk getting hung up on the use or arbitrary terminology.

If it's not a club organised comp, it's something else. What the organiser of it decides to do is their business.

A non-senior showed up at the time of the Senior Roll Up last week. He chucked in his quid, and joined in. Otherwise hed have been left playing on his own.

I don't think the R&A will get involved as its a first offence!

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I assume this is just a rule in your head?

It isn't something that is an official recommendation anywhere?

So who from the competition committee is overseeing the competition?

Can any member then just create a competition using the system and then have the scores deemed as competitive as opposed to GP ?

 

[Swango1980]

So who from the competition committee is overseeing the competition?

Can any member then just create a competition using the system and then have the scores deemed as competitive as opposed to GP ?

I'm not part of either roll up, so I don't know the full ins and outs of how it is sorted on the system.

All I know is that this group meet up once or twice at the weekend, sign in and put their scores in on howdidido and I see their results published later that day.

The same is also true for the Thursday roll up. However, anyone in the club can turn up on the day to play. And their results are published by the evening.

I'm not sure if the Club Secretary or Professional set it up on the system on the day, or the Club are aware of when the groups are meeting up in advance, and set it all up before the date so that players can enter their scores on the day. The Club reserve a certain amount of slots for these groups on the BRS booking system 4 weeks in advance, so maybe they can also do whatever they need to do on Club V1 as well

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I'm not part of either roll up, so I don't know the full ins and outs of how it is sorted on the system.

All I know is that this group meet up once or twice at the weekend, sign in and put their scores in on howdidido and I see their results published later that day.

The same is also true for the Thursday roll up. However, anyone in the club can turn up on the day to play. And their results are published by the evening.

I'm not sure if the Club Secretary or Professional set it up on the system on the day, or the Club are aware of when the groups are meeting up in advance, and set it all up before the date so that players can enter their scores on the day. The Club reserve a certain amount of slots for these groups on the BRS booking system 4 weeks in advance, so maybe they can also do whatever they need to do on Club V1 as well

A roll up at a local club is looked after by the club and their comp committee and deemed a Qualifying competition

For the swindle that you are talking about just look at their HC record on HDID and it will tell you if the scores are GP or Comp

 

[Swango1980]

A roll up at a local club is looked after by the club and their comp committee and deemed a Qualifying competition

For the swindle that you are talking about just look at their HC record on HDID and it will tell you if the scores are GP or Comp

Good point.

Yes, the weekend group that play amongst themselves AND the weekeday roll up are both shown as "Qualifier" on howdidido results

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Good point.

Yes, the weekend group that play amongst themselves AND the weekeday roll up are both shown as "Qualifier" on howdidido results

So all their scorecards will be deemed as comp scores as opposed to GP scores when playing in a swindle organised by themselves

That for me opens up even more issues and certainly not something I have heard or seen before - even more so when it’s a closed swindle

 

[Swango1980]

So all their scorecards will be deemed as comp scores as opposed to GP scores when playing in a swindle organised by themselves

That for me opens up even more issues and certainly not something I have heard or seen before - even more so when it’s a closed swindle

Presumably the club trust these members to play by the rules, just like they trust members in the official club competitions.

In official club competitions, there is not a referee out with every (or any group), so you have to trust the players in the field. Whether that be a random draw, or a draw that allows you to play with your mates.

The club will probably not extend this to every single group of golfers that regularly meet up and play during the week. Say a 4 ball that meets up every Monday. But, for the weekend group and the weekday roll ups, they have enough confidence that these scores will be played under the rules of golf. The results are being published, and so the scores are more visible to members (as opposed to GP scores), and that could assist the club when it comes to reviews. At some point since WHS, the Club have probably recommended to players in these groups that their scores are entered for handicap (when they were not previously), and that is what has happened.

But, going back to my original comment on this, it would seem if Golf Clubs assisted these groups to submit their scores officially, and they did so, then golfers would have more Competition Scores on their record and it would help them qualify for competitions with restrictions to No. of Competition Scores required.

 

[wjemather]

As I said

If the club are setting it up on the system as a qualifying competition then it would a comp score on their record

Or it’s set up as a non qualifying and they are just using it to publish their results which can be done

But for me to run qualifying competitions on the course imo should be open for all to enter

what you’re saying happens imo is not a club run competition so shouldn’t be a competition score on their handicap

There are countless examples of comps that are not open to all: men's, ladies, seniors, veterans, juniors, mid-am, low handicap, high handicap, champion of champions, etc. Restricting entry to a specific group of players or society is no different.

As replicated in the NCG article, GB&I guidance states: "Clubs that regularly hold such events may well find that setting them up as competitions on the computer will make it easier for players to ensure that their scores are returned correctly."

 

[wjemather]

Presumably the club trust these members to play by the rules, just like they trust members in the official club competitions.

In official club competitions, there is not a referee out with every (or any group), so you have to trust the players in the field. Whether that be a random draw, or a draw that allows you to play with your mates.

This is the crux of the issue. Many people believe there is a fundamental difference between a competition score and a general play score, when there really isn't. They are generally played under the same conditions, i.e. few comps are drawn these days at most clubs, and even fewer are played under tournament conditions (with referees, etc.).

 

[Arthur Wedge]

There are countless examples of comps that are not open to all: men's, ladies, seniors, veterans, juniors, mid-am, low handicap, high handicap, champion of champions, etc. Restricting entry to a specific group of players or society is no different.

As replicated in the NCG article, GB&I guidance states: "Clubs that regularly hold such events may well find that setting them up as competitions on the computer will make it easier for players to ensure that their scores are returned correctly."

Again it’s all club run comps you are talking about

As opposed to your generic social run swindle that a bunch of mates sort out between

Maybe you are wired to just not understand the difference with people just wanting to enjoy a bit of social golf with their mates without a care of what the WHS and their foot soldiers say

 

[Arthur Wedge]

This is the crux of the issue. Many people believe there is a fundamental difference between a competition score and a general play score, when there really isn't. They are generally played under the same conditions, i.e. few comps are drawn these days at most clubs, and even fewer are played under tournament conditions (with referees, etc.).

It’s very clear that clubs organising opens and even ones under the Governing Bodies are restricting entry to people with too many GP scores

Because we all know that people are using them to manipulate their handicap

It’a no different to clubs not allowing igolf members to enter opens

 

[Dunesman]

This is the crux of the issue. Many people believe there is a fundamental difference between a competition score and a general play score, when there really isn't. They are generally played under the same conditions, i.e. few comps are drawn these days at most clubs, and even fewer are played under tournament conditions (with referees, etc.).

There is a fundamental difference. With a competition score, I try to achieve my best score. With casual golf, the rare swindle included, I dont try. I am distracted by the chat. I will work on my swing. I take on risky shots that I wouldnt if it were a 'real' round. I take litttle or no interest in how good or bad my score is. I am just out for the walk and the company. In a competition, my score does matter to me, I take it seriously as a challenge to finish as high as I can, and ideally, get my handicap down. The two approaches are fundamentally different.

I get they may well be the same in the rules. But this is where rules have diverged from the real world. It is the rules, not players, that need to come back into line.

 

[wjemather]

Again it’s all club run comps you are talking about

As opposed to your generic social run swindle that a bunch of mates sort out between

Maybe you are wired to just not understand the difference with people just wanting to enjoy a bit of social golf with their mates without a care of what the WHS and their foot soldiers say

Some want to put meaningless competitions (and their handicap) on a pedestal. I'm not one of them.
(Almost) all golf is social golf, including when playing in regular club competitions, which are nothing more than a bit of added fun - no different to any a rollup/swindle, just open to more people and organised more formally.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Some want to put meaningless competitions on a pedestal. I'm not one of them.
(Almost) all golf is social golf, including when playing in regular club competitions, which are nothing more than a bit of added fun - no different to any a rollup/swindle, just open to more people and organised more formally.

I think there is a prob a lot more that seem the two as seperate in the way they approach it

But if it’s all just fun then there is no need to worry too much about any whs guidelines

 

[Tashyboy]

Not reading through 10 pages of this and apologies if it has been asked.

But why have EG not made there views or rulings more vocal on the site etc. personally I think they should keep there nose out.

 

[Slab]

There is a fundamental difference. With a competition score, I try to achieve my best score. With casual golf, the rare swindle included, I dont try. I am distracted by the chat. I will work on my swing. I take on risky shots that I wouldnt if it were a 'real' round. I take litttle or no interest in how good or bad my score is. I am just out for the walk and the company. In a competition, my score does matter to me, I take it seriously as a challenge to finish as high as I can, and ideally, get my handicap down. The two approaches are fundamentally different.

I get they may well be the same in the rules. But this is where rules have diverged from the real world. It is the rules, not players, that need to come back into line.

But just to look at this from the other perspective, you must get that its a WHS not a DHS

 

[wjemather]

I think there is a prob a lot more that seem the two as seperate in the way they approach it

Among other things, the number of people who turn up cold (little or no warm-up or practice) on the first tee in a comp says different.