Roll Up Group Handicaps

[Arthur Wedge]

If that’s the rule why not? Don’t like it, play somewhere else.

Some people are more than happy for the club to have rules governing the style and colour of underwear, and follow them without question.

So when someone is having a social round you would expect them to follow every single rule ?

It’s winter and there are mud balls and group agree for it to be ok for people to lift and clean the ball ?

What’s the issue with that

 

[Backache]

If that’s the rule why not? Don’t like it, play somewhere else.

Possibly surprising to some but many clubs are actually trying to retain members.
It is also up to the membership not EG how social golf is played in a club.

 

[wjemather]

I know what I meant, you know what I meant.

As to the second paragraph, if I've entered a formal competition where the organisers wish scores to be submitted then yes, I will ensure my score is submitted, otherwise I won't.

As a player you have the responsibility to submit all acceptable scores; that includes those from any organised competition, formal or informal (usual requirements apply). The organisers wishes are irrelevant.

 

[RichA]

Laws and rules that can't be enforced are daft. Never pick a fight you can't win.
EG and their affiliated clubs' committees just have to ask themselves a few questions:
How can we enforce this?
What will be the effect on our membership if we sanction or threaten to sanction the dozens of members at our club who participate in these events?
And for proprietary clubs, what will our owners do if we're threatening their customers?

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

So when someone is having a social round you would expect them to follow every single rule ?

It’s winter and there are mud balls and group agree for it to be ok for people to lift and clean the ball ?

What’s the issue with that

I have absolutely no issues with that whatsoever. That’s not what I’m saying is it?

Playing in an organised comp, because however you frame it swindles are. Isn’t just rocking up and playing a social round.

 

[Backache]

As a player you have the responsibility to submit all acceptable scores; that includes those from any organised competition, formal or informal (usual requirements apply). The organisers wishes are irrelevant.

You still haven't answered what if the competition is organised with variants of the rules as is very frequently the case in social golf.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I have absolutely no issues with that whatsoever. That’s not what I’m saying is it?

Playing in an organised comp, because however you frame it swindles are. Isn’t just rocking up and playing a social round.

That’s what most of the swindles I play in our - social golf , pick and place everywhere at times , no need to put out , friendly matchplay at times - money in for a team comp for some

 

[Backache]

Playing in an organised comp, because however you frame it swindles are. Isn’t just rocking up and playing a social round.

They are organised for the benefit of those playing in then, not for a megalomaniac who wishes to determine how social golf should be played to suit any particular handicapping system.

 

[Crow]

As a player you have the responsibility to submit all acceptable scores; that includes those from any organised competition, formal or informal (usual requirements apply). The organisers wishes are irrelevant.

Dream on.

 

[nickjdavis]

If there is someone administering a bespoke handicap system for a rollup/swindle, I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that the competition wasn't organised.

Bespoke handicapping systems are not something that i am familiar with. I grant you that management of such a scheme could also fall under the "organised" class of game.

 

[Dunesman]

As a player you have the responsibility to submit all acceptable scores.

This is where EG needs to catch up with golf as it is actually played here. They need to stop making up rules in a bubble and trying to impose them on the people playing the game. Devise the rules to suit what people play, not the other way around.

 

[Dunesman]

If there is someone administering a bespoke handicap system for a rollup/swindle, I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that the competition wasn't organised.

These competitions are of course organised. Somewhat. Its a bit, how long is a piece of organised. But they work fine. The problem is trying to whip players for whom such arrangements have worked perfectly fine for decades, into an externally imposed view of how they should do things. Of course the sensible thing is just to ignore EG and play on. EG can diverge away into irrelevance if they wish.

 

[nickjdavis]

At the end of the day all this is really doing is highlighting authorities desire to control what people do and how they think.

The Orwellian society is closer than many people realise.

 

[Backache]

Bespoke handicapping systems are not something that i am familiar with. I grant you that management of such a scheme could also fall under the "organised" class of game.

The ones that I am personally familiar with tend to knock off points on a handicap for winning competitions. However most of the competitions though semi organised do not follow strict RoG , Most simply putts under a certain length are conceded for speed of play.
There are doubtless as many variants as there are clubs across the country . You only have to look at the thread of how does your roll up/ swindle work to realise that many different groups adjust things according to local needs ease of tee access etc etc. People trying to police this are creating problems that frankly golf does not need.
Most clubs are trying to attract golfers not try and police their social rounds, however semi organised they may be and the degree of organisation varies massively.

 

[Backache]

I have absolutely no issues with that whatsoever. That’s not what I’m saying is it?

Playing in an organised comp, because however you frame it swindles are. Isn’t just rocking up and playing a social round.

Ours are definitely both social and have the ability to just rock up.

 

[jim8flog]

At my previous club, when I was handicap sec and pre WHS, we organised roll ups every weekend, and some after work in the summer. The idea being that we could get all our mates together and still have a bit of a competition, but also new members or members who don't have a group of mates at club, could just turn up and play. Worked very well. As this was pre WHS, there was no thought of making these official comps for handicap. It soon became apparent some golfers were much more successful than others, and it frustrated many others. So I derived my own handicap system, and it worked well. With WHS now, we wouldn't have really needed to do this, we could have just got everyone to put scores on official record.

Question is, were these roll ups just run by a group of mates and so scores should not go to the players official record? Or, because I was on the Committee, is it an organised comp that should have scores going to handicap record?

At my new club, where I'm not on Committee, there are 6-8 of us that played for a couple of quid each. After a while, nobody wanted to play anymore, because one player had a really high handicap and barely ever put in any scores. He probably won more than 50% of the roll ups, and those in his group also had to always buy him a coffee for losing their match play. Therefore, lately we have all agreed that if we are doing roll ups and he is playing, everyone must submit their score.

Ultimately, if enough people want to play in roll ups and not have their handicap impacted, it will still commonly occur. But, it'll not stop the frustrations when one person playing the roll up enters all their scores and gets reductions, while another player never submits their scores and continually shoots good scores. Unless somebody is prepared to administer their own handicap system for the roll ups. That can work well, especially at clubs that is shut to handicap rounds over much of the winter. But, you just need someone to administer it. And, it almost seems pointless for most of the year, when their is an official handicap system that can be used very easily now, rather than inventing your own.

One the swindles I play had similar problems. In the end the organiser introduced a rule that you could only go in the kitty if you put a card. There was one player in particular that the rule was bought in for Funny thing was he also played in another swindle and both organisers kept a record of his scores. Using peer review and those scores he was cut 5 shots by the handicap committee but he still would not put in cards to go in to kitty.

Sadly he died so the organiser relented about cards but now we have another one so the rule is back in.

In the swindle I run we do not have swindle handicaps but players get a one game deduction of 2 points for a win and 4 points if they win the next time, all deductions removed if they do not win the next time. Everybody who plays in it is very happy with the system.

 

[jim8flog]

As a player you have the responsibility to submit all acceptable scores; that includes those from any organised competition, formal or informal (usual requirements apply). The organisers wishes are irrelevant.

The simple answer to that one is sign up for a gross card and not a stableford and NR for every hole where you have failed to put out. Play in enough swindles and a player will very quickly get a handicap that does not reflect their ability.

 

[wjemather]

The simple answer to that one is sign up for a gross card and not a stableford and NR for every hole where you have failed to put out. Play in enough swindles and a player will very quickly get a handicap that does not reflect their ability.

If the player fulfils all their RoH responsibilities, it makes no difference what scoring format is signed up for, and there is no reason why their handicap wouldn't reflect their ability.

 

[Swango1980]

One the swindles I play had similar problems. In the end the organiser introduced a rule that you could only go in the kitty if you put a card. There was one player in particular that the rule was bought in for Funny thing was he also played in another swindle and both organisers kept a record of his scores. Using peer review and those scores he was cut 5 shots by the handicap committee but he still would not put in cards to go in to kitty.

Sadly he died so the organiser relented about cards but now we have another one so the rule is back in.

In the swindle I run we do not have swindle handicaps but players get a one game deduction of 2 points for a win and 4 points if they win the next time, all deductions removed if they do not win the next time. Everybody who plays in it is very happy with the system.

Yeah, when I sorted out the roll up handicaps pre WHS, I essentially did the following:

Normal CONGU type handicap adjustments based on their score, except assuming SSS was 36 points (including taking into account their category)
If they have more then 7 0.1 increases consecutively, +1.0 extra
If they win, they get an extra cut of 0.1 x No. of people in the field (up to a max of 2.0)

I originally thought of giving the winner a flat 1 or 2 shots reduction on top of the normal CONGU type adjustment. However, I felt that would be harsh on the winner of a roll up where only a few people turned up. So that's why I adjusted it to be based on the no. of players in the field.

Just looking at the last set of handicaps now (Feb 2020). The chap who has stopped everyone playing now has been playing off around 25-29 the last year. He is a better player now than he was in 2020. His roll up handicap then was 14.7. Ran the system since July 2016, I made the most appearances with 108 roll ups. Happy times

 

[Arthur Wedge]

If the player fulfils all their RoH responsibilities, it makes no difference what scoring format is signed up for, and there is no reason why their handicap wouldn't reflect their ability.

Do you live and breath the rule book

Does every single time you play do you enter a card