Roll up GP card submtting alongside team event

[Length]

My understanding is General Play cards cannot be submitted played on a measured course in a roll up, if that roll up give prizes for Team scores as well as individual prizes.
Has anyone got any information on this situation?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I guess it’s the ‘team’ aspect that gives rise to the question. Without knowing for certain I’d say that as long as I played to the rules of golf (including ensuring that no other team member deliberately played shots with sole purpose of informing my choice, or gave me any advice); used my WHS handicap, and had a card for me registered before going out and then marked by another, I see no issue. Playing in the team context is something I’d manage - so for instance it would be up to me whether or not to ‘go’ for shots - my team mates might grumble if I played conservatively when the team didn’t need me to, but so be it.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Depends on the format surely. We normally have a "team" event amongst the fourballs and there is usally £2 per person towards a team prize which we run as a combined stableford and there is an individual stableford with GP cards as well as everyone has to sumbit a GP card to win the singles pot

 

[woofers]

Not allowed, see last bullet point on page 2.

https://static.whsplatform.englandgolf.org/clubs/1000-1/uploads/downloads/whs/acceptable%20score%20submissions%20for%20handicap%20purposes%20v3%20-%20branded.pdf

I made a similar enquiry to England Golf last year as the Pro Ams were being run as a best 2 of 4, with Pros scoring in an individual competition. Some of the Pro’s were submitting these scores for their handicap records. I was told by England Golf that this was not acceptable.

Didn’t stop some of the scores being submitted though.

My query:
Good afternoon,
In a Pro Am event, teams of 1 ‘Pro’ and 3 amateur’s play best 2 of 4 stableford scoring for the team prize with the Pro’s also playing for an individual scratch prize.
Some of the Pro’s have active handicaps.
I know the amateur scores are not eligible for handicapping purposes but are the Pro scores acceptable for handicapping?

EG reply:
In reply -

This format of play is not acceptable for handicap purposes, regardless of the status of the golfer.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Not allowed, see last bullet point on page 2.

https://static.whsplatform.englandgolf.org/clubs/1000-1/uploads/downloads/whs/acceptable%20score%20submissions%20for%20handicap%20purposes%20v3%20-%20branded.pdf

I made a similar enquiry to England Golf last year as the Pro Ams were being run as a best 2 of 4, with Pros scoring in an individual competition. Some of the Pro’s were submitting these scores for their handicap records. I was told by England Golf that this was not acceptable.

Didn’t stop some of the scores being submitted though.

My query:
Good afternoon,
In a Pro Am event, teams of 1 ‘Pro’ and 3 amateur’s play best 2 of 4 stableford scoring for the team prize with the Pro’s also playing for an individual scratch prize.
Some of the Pro’s have active handicaps.
I know the amateur scores are not eligible for handicapping purposes but are the Pro scores acceptable for handicapping?

EG reply:
In reply -

This format of play is not acceptable for handicap purposes, regardless of the status of the golfer.

Why does the last bullet point on p2 or your separate query to England Golf preclude a player who is playing in a team event from registering and submitting their own card - subject to the player adhering to WHS requirements and the rules of golf.

At my place our roll up will sometimes play 2 from 3 Stableford Am-Am format…but that does not preclude individuals registering and submitting a card for their own purposes.

 

[D-S]

The only acceptable format for submitting a GP card is singles strokeplay.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The only acceptable format for submitting a GP card is singles strokeplay.

So if I am playing a 2 from 3 stableford I cannot at the same time register, complete and submit an individual strokeplay card - and by extension I cannot play a 4BBB friendly match and at the same time register, complete and submit a strokeplay card for WHS purposes - with all holes played and completed fully in accordance with the rules of golf. Far be it from me to doubt...but are you sure?

I go to another club with three mates and one or more of us want to submit a GP card for the round. We can - but we cannot play a friendly 4BBB match at the same time?

 

[D-S]

So if I am playing a 2 from 3 stableford I cannot at the same time register, complete and submit an individual strokeplay card - and by extension I cannot play a 4BBB friendly match and at the same time register, complete and submit a strokeplay card for WHS purposes - with all holes played and completed fully in accordance with the rules of golf. Far be it from me to doubt...but are you sure?

I go to another club with three mates and one or more of us want to submit a GP card for the round. We can - but we cannot play a friendly 4BBB match at the same time?

Yup.

 

[woofers]

So if I am playing a 2 from 3 stableford I cannot at the same time register, complete and submit an individual strokeplay card - and by extension I cannot play a 4BBB friendly match and at the same time register, complete and submit a strokeplay card for WHS purposes - with all holes played and completed fully in accordance with the rules of golf. Far be it from me to doubt...but are you sure?

I go to another club with three mates and one or more of us want to submit a GP card for the round. We can - but we cannot play a friendly 4BBB match at the same time?

I think the document from England Golf is quite clear in regard to what is allowed under the rules.
However the Rules of Handicapping are being ignored, broken or just plainly not known / understood by golfers every week up and down the country.
I’m very sure with regard to your first paragraph that the score is not acceptable, regardless of how diligent you may be in not obtaining advice, or ignoring how the other 2 players in your team are playing.
With regard to your second paragraph, again the rules would prohibit it, but I suspect it’s happening week in, week out, all over the country.
The systems do not have checks and balances to police this.
It’s why General Play cards have the ‘reputation’ they have.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think the document from England Golf is quite clear in regard to what is allowed under the rules.
However the Rules of Handicapping are being ignored, broken or just plainly not known / understood by golfers every week up and down the country.
I’m very sure with regard to your first paragraph that the score is not acceptable, regardless of how diligent you may be in not obtaining advice, or ignoring how the other 2 players in your team are playing.
With regard to your second paragraph, again the rules would prohibit it, but I suspect it’s happening week in, week out, all over the country.
The systems do not have checks and balances to police this.
It’s why General Play cards have the ‘reputation’ they have.

Well...I have to say that I am surprised. My club is pretty darned diligent on matters WHS and the Rules - and I would be surprised if it's turning a blind eye - which suggest that our Golf Manager and our Handicap Secretary are unaware - which I can't believe. Does the 2 from 3 or 4BBB have to be formally organized by the club...I'm talking informal rollup friendly comp.

But if this is indeed the case I have a choice to make. If I am to put a card in every Saturday as I had planned - new year - new approach to GP cards - then I will not be able to play in our rollup...really?

Further...the club runs a stableford comp every Saturday all day that anyone can enter simply by registering before playing. These comp cards are deemed acceptable for WHS purposes. But some of us register, complete and submit this card alongside a separate card we submit for the rollup individual prize.

Bottom line is that I am 95% confident that what our rollup does is compliant with WHS and the rules of golf and handicapping. If it's the 5% that holds then I conclude that GP cards are in general a load of tosh.

 

[wjemather]

As has been said, the only authorised format of play for GP score submission in GB&I is individual stroke play.

Such scores may be used for side bets, such as for a team score, but the format being played and the rules being followed must be individual stroke play.

Edit to add: it's important to note that if the format of play is 4BBB, best 2 from 3, etc., that is what it is; i.e. the player does not have the option of electing to play by individual stroke play rules in order to submit a GP score.

 

[woofers]

Well...I have to say that I am surprised. My club is pretty darned diligent on matters WHS and the Rules - and I would be surprised if it's turning a blind eye - which suggest that our Golf Manager and our Handicap Secretary are unaware - which I can't believe. Does the 2 from 3 or 4BBB have to be formally organized by the club...I'm talking informal rollup friendly comp.

But if this is indeed the case I have a choice to make. If I am to put a card in every Saturday as I had planned - new year - new approach to GP cards - then I will not be able to play in our rollup...really?

Further...the club runs a stableford comp every Saturday all day that anyone can enter simply by registering before playing. These comp cards are deemed acceptable for WHS purposes. But some of us register, complete and submit this card alongside a separate card we submit for the rollup individual prize.

Bottom line is that I am 95% confident that what our rollup does is compliant with WHS and the rules of golf and handicapping. If it's the 5% that holds then I conclude that GP cards are in general a load of tosh.

We could spend a lot of time going backwards and forwards on this, although I think the document from EG is quite clear.
May I respectfully suggest you refer the matter to your golf manager and handicap secretary who can perhaps liaise with your county advisor. Let us know how they get on.

 

[Length]

The exact wording from EG is:
Scores from team events (best 2 of 4 or best 3 of 3 for example) are not acceptable for handicap purposes. In addition, players may not choose to submit a general play score whilst playing in a team event.

Isn’t the example given of best 3 from 3 indicating adding up total points for the round for a team to win a prize means individual scores are unacceptable?

 

[wjemather]

The exact wording from EG is:
Scores from team events (best 2 of 4 or best 3 of 3 for example) are not acceptable for handicap purposes. In addition, players may not choose to submit a general play score whilst playing in a team event.

Isn’t the example given of best 3 from 3 indicating adding up total points for the round for a team to win a prize means individual scores are unacceptable?

The difference is between:

1. playing in an individual event, which is acceptable for handicapping, with scores being taken for use in a team
2. playing in a team event, and wanting to use the individual scores for handicapping, which is not allowed

 

[AussieKB]

When I was in Sydney I used to play Mon-Fri at five different courses in their comps, all of which were a 4BBB and individual stableford, and two of them were Division 1 clubs.

 

[Backache]

It appears to be an utterly irrational idiotic decision that determines that you cannot submit a card in team play, but you may have a card forcibly submitted in a 4bbb format to which you may have minimally contributed and your scores are effectively invented.

 

[wjemather]

It appears to be an utterly irrational idiotic decision that determines that you cannot submit a card in team play, but you may have a card forcibly submitted in a 4bbb format to which you may have minimally contributed and your scores are effectively invented.

Not really.
In 4BBB, and even moreso in best-ball, you shouldn't be holing out on every hole so there isn't a complete 9/18-hole score to submit.

Doing something about good 4BBB scores was demanded by clubs and players. The methodology used ensures that you have in fact contributed significantly, not minimally, to your sides score.

 

[Backache]

So the clubs want a way of stopping cheating and instead of allowing them to demand scores from competition they fabricate scores.
Logical it isn't.
It's an utter mess of inconsistencies.

 

[Swango1980]

I put in a GP score every social round I play, and play under the individual stroke play Rules of Golf. However, when in a 4 ball, everyone also likes to play 4BBB match play, losers but the coffee for the other 2. So, we also play that. No gimmes.

However, in an official 4BBB match I'll obviously not submit a score, where gimmes are allowed. Also, when we play in Team Opens, best 2 score on each hole, I don't submit a score. I'd love to as I essentially putt out, but don't

 

[NearHull]

Today I’ll be playing in our club organised Roll Up, random draw for playing partners. Most of us will enter the separate Club organised Individual Stableford Competition. At the end of the competition, after submitting our cards, we meet up and throw in a £1 for a team prize. The winning team is the group with the highest average score. It allows us the freedom to turn up or not, play in an Acceptable Format for submissions, play with different partners and provide a side bet, which is not about the money, but about ‘bragging rights’.

The Roll Up is used by the Club to introduce new members which adds to the experience - in a good way.