Roll Back Discussion

[Deleted member 1147]

I’ve not played two of these, but I’m sure that Worplesdon, Woking and Swinley are all of a relatively modest length — SF albeit being less in par. I’d imagine that the famous strategic centre-line bunker on the 4th at Woking wouldn’t trouble an elite amateur as they’d be able to carry it

Most of th county level golfers would knock it over that with out much thought

 

[Crow]

Really where did you get that stat?
Our club celebrated 100 years of Women's golf at our club 2 years ago and that section was certainly one of the very first in the area back in 1921.

https://cugc.uk/2022/08/21/the-great-english-golf-boom-1864-1914-a-history/

 

[Steve Wilkes]

But we repeatedly get told on here that equipment hasn’t improved for 20 or 30 years! So has it or hasn’t it?

A large part of the distance gained by pros is their intention to do so, that they are now fitter, stronger and have a better understanding of biomechanics than previous generations.

This is so true, give these guys today the same ball and driver from 20 years ago and they will hit the distances they are doing now. Guys on the Long Drive Tour hit 50 yards past the likes of Rory ect.. but haven't got the accuracy and all round game to compete, but if one or more of them did have it to make it on tour then we will see even greater distances and not just fully down to equipment

 

[Swango1980]

That's means a 2 club difference for the next shot; 3 when you add in the increased difference for irons. That's huge.


It has certainly been damaging to certain aspects of the sport. The resultant influx of 250+ yard par 3s and 600+ yard par 5s is an abomination. Strategy should be a large part of the game, but distance with impunity (due to forgiveness increasing accuracy without significant loss of distance, and the ease of hitting an 8 iron from the rough rather than a 5 iron) has reduced it to an afterthought. Added distance has also necessitated ludicrous extensions to back tees (even going beyond the boundaries of the course in many cases; Old Course, Augusta National, Merion, etc.) to accommodate elite golf and bring design features back into play; better than average amateurs would simply need to move back a tee for the same effect.


They always have, and always will.


Senior pros, a semi-immobile Tiger Woods, and (fat) middle-aged men are not hitting the ball farther than they did when they were in their prime for any other reason than equipment.

It sounds like you are completely eliminating the physical attributes of the players then!?

Sure, the equipment today will hit the ball further than it did in the 1900's, 1950's, 1970's etc. However, how much further does the equipment today hit it further than it did a decade ago? And, if there is a difference, how much of that difference is due to the fact the equipment today might be more forgiving, thus off centre strikes go further? So, maybe the maximum distance hasn't gone up a lot, but the average distance has gone up more as golfers can at least more consistently get more distance from poor strikes?

I'd struggle to rule out the physical differences between pro golfers now and back in the day. When golfers are playing for millions of dollars per event, it makes sense that the science that goes into training the body and the swing go up massively. How much time do pro golfers spend in the gym today, compared to decades ago? How much investment into college has gone into golf, to produce an even bigger pool of talented golfers. How many more sporty people chose golf than some other sport, because it now looks much more appealing when you can be a multi millionaire? Not to mention that many myths have been busted by trackman, and so coaching has come a long way.

Incidentally, fat middle aged men at my club are not hitting the ball on average 299 yards at my club. If they are averaging over 200 yards, I'd be surprised.

 

[GB72]

It sounds like you are completely eliminating the physical attributes of the players then!?

Sure, the equipment today will hit the ball further than it did in the 1900's, 1950's, 1970's etc. However, how much further does the equipment today hit it further than it did a decade ago? And, if there is a difference, how much of that difference is due to the fact the equipment today might be more forgiving, thus off centre strikes go further? So, maybe the maximum distance hasn't gone up a lot, but the average distance has gone up more as golfers can at least more consistently get more distance from poor strikes?

I'd struggle to rule out the physical differences between pro golfers now and back in the day. When golfers are playing for millions of dollars per event, it makes sense that the science that goes into training the body and the swing go up massively. How much time do pro golfers spend in the gym today, compared to decades ago? How much investment into college has gone into golf, to produce an even bigger pool of talented golfers. How many more sporty people chose golf than some other sport, because it now looks much more appealing when you can be a multi millionaire? Not to mention that many myths have been busted by trackman, and so coaching has come a long way.

Incidentally, fat middle aged men at my club are not hitting the ball on average 299 yards at my club. If they are averaging over 200 yards, I'd be surprised.

I guess the problem that you have when distance is starting to impact the viability of historic courses is that you cannot demand that players become less fit and so the equipment is the only control you have left (aside from course design but nobody seems to want to mention that the the prevalence of underproteceted stadium courses that reward distance over accuracy and the desire to produce long drive and birdie golf that appeals to the average TV viewer is why we are where we are now).

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I guess the problem that you have when distance is starting to impact the viability of historic courses is that you cannot demand that players become less fit and so the equipment is the only control you have left (aside from course design but nobody seems to want to mention that the the prevalence of underproteceted stadium courses that reward distance over accuracy and the desire to produce long drive and birdie golf that appeals to the average TV viewer is why we are where we are now).

The Pro game doesn’t really affect the “historic courses and their viability”

If we take the UK for example how many Pro events happen at the historic courses - the Open , that’s it , and those courses defence 99% is the weather. Doesn’t matter how far the pro can hit it when the course depends on the weather

The rest of the historic courses within the UK don’t host pro events and 99% of them haven’t ever really hosted Pro events - they are always at the same type of course and set up for players to score well regardless of the distance a player hits the ball

 

[Crow]

It sounds like you are completely eliminating the physical attributes of the players then!?

Sure, the equipment today will hit the ball further than it did in the 1900's, 1950's, 1970's etc. However, how much further does the equipment today hit it further than it did a decade ago? And, if there is a difference, how much of that difference is due to the fact the equipment today might be more forgiving, thus off centre strikes go further? So, maybe the maximum distance hasn't gone up a lot, but the average distance has gone up more as golfers can at least more consistently get more distance from poor strikes?

I'd struggle to rule out the physical differences between pro golfers now and back in the day. When golfers are playing for millions of dollars per event, it makes sense that the science that goes into training the body and the swing go up massively. How much time do pro golfers spend in the gym today, compared to decades ago? How much investment into college has gone into golf, to produce an even bigger pool of talented golfers. How many more sporty people chose golf than some other sport, because it now looks much more appealing when you can be a multi millionaire? Not to mention that many myths have been busted by trackman, and so coaching has come a long way.

Incidentally, fat middle aged men at my club are not hitting the ball on average 299 yards at my club. If they are averaging over 200 yards, I'd be surprised.

I think we all know that it's a combination of equipment and athleticism that's brought us to where we are now.

It would be very hard (as well as ridiculous) to put a limit on how much a golfer can train and so the only way to reduce distances is via the equipment side of the equation.

I didn't read anywhere that fat middle aged men were averaging 299 yards and I doubt that you did, but a 200 yard average is good going and they'd certainly have struggled to achieve that with pre 1990 gear.

 

[Backsticks]

If they change the rules to make the ball go less distance, the big hitters will still hit the new ball further than the short hitters hit the new ball - how will this level the playing field if that is what they want?

The key aim is to avoid course obsolescence or making course design and distance an ever escalating arms race.

Additionally, reducing the distance differential, reduces the gain overall that distance gives to a score. Rebalancing it to accuracy, consistency, shortgame, putting.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Should motorcycle speed be restricted at the TT?

 

[Bdill93]

I really don't mind what they do to pro golfers balls.

Courses like Augusta and The Old Course may benefit from a shorter ball being played but not the vast majority of PGA tour courses.

Use it where it makes sense, don't use it where its not necessary.

 

[bobmac]

What balls would amateurs use if they qualified for The Open?

 

[Crow]

In my view, a big part of the issue is that we've been told that distance is great and been sold on clubs hitting longer shots and balls going further etc etc.

It's been shoved down our throats from every quarter for decades now and we've almost forgotten other enjoyable aspects of golf such as how to hit a draw or a fade, flight a low ball under the wind, run a wood into a green, etc.

To me these elements offer just as much, if not more reward, than smashing the ball as far as we can.

 

[Crow]

Should motorcycle speed be restricted at the TT?

Should the weight of potatoes be limited at the check-out?

 

[Mel Smooth]

Should the weight of potatoes be limited at the check-out?

No, unless of course the actual existence of potatoes and their supply was in danger. Golf is definitively not in that position, indeed, it’s enjoying a boom in participation.

 

[Orikoru]

In my view, a big part of the issue is that we've been told that distance is great and been sold on clubs hitting longer shots and balls going further etc etc.

It's been shoved down our throats from every quarter for decades now and we've almost forgotten other enjoyable aspects of golf such as how to hit a draw or a fade, flight a low ball under the wind, run a wood into a green, etc.

To me these elements offer just as much, if not more reward, than smashing the ball as far as we can.

I just prefer to focus on the things I can do on purpose!

 

[sweaty sock]

I think Im supportive of a rollback. Id probably rather they just bit the bullet and made it the same for everyone, like they did with the 1.62 - 1.68 change.

Bit of change over time, 99.9 percent of population wont notice the difference. For those that do, courses will be more challenging. Bunkers will be in the right place, par 5s will need a couple good shots.

Relearning new yardages is a doddle, you do it every time you buy new (or really old @Crow) clubs and dont complain.

Cant really see a down side...

 

[Mandofred]

Should motorcycle speed be restricted at the TT?

I'm not sure....but don't they limit engine size? That would restrict the speed.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

In my view, a big part of the issue is that we've been told that distance is great and been sold on clubs hitting longer shots and balls going further etc etc.

It's been shoved down our throats from every quarter for decades now and we've almost forgotten other enjoyable aspects of golf such as how to hit a draw or a fade, flight a low ball under the wind, run a wood into a green, etc.

To me these elements offer just as much, if not more reward, than smashing the ball as far as we can.

Horses for courses at the end of the day

There is the chance and ability to enjoy all that depending on your own personal choice

If you want just hit it hard then crack on , if you want to plot your way around the course then you can do that

Pros still coach shot making and shot shaping along with short game

I don’t think many club pros for example just coach someone to hit it as far as they can

A lot of the focus for a number of manufacturers is about forgiveness and trying to keep the ball on the fairway.

 

[Crow]

Horses for courses at the end of the day

There is the chance and ability to enjoy all that depending on your own personal choice

If you want just hit it hard then crack on , if you want to plot your way around the course then you can do that

Pros still coach shot making and shot shaping along with short game

I don’t think many club pros for example just coach someone to hit it as far as they can

A lot of the focus for a number of manufacturers is about forgiveness and trying to keep the ball on the fairway.

When club golfers bother to go to see their pro I'd bet that most are there asking to gain distance.

Only recently have manufacturers started talking about forgiveness as it's been proven that they've maxed out on distance for drivers, and loft strengthening on irons has reached a point where even the most gullible starts to wonder why there are no more 4 irons or they need 4 or 5 wedges to round out a set of irons.

 

[Backache]

F1 is a good case study. Restrict the cars, engineers go to work and before you know it the 1.6 hybrid goes as fast as a V8 turbo. Same will happen here. Drag balls back 20 yards, pros will find a way to get another 20 yards.

They may do, they may not do, but they would be doing it from a shorter starting point than if they were seeking the 20 yds from now, so you may be future proofing courses.