Roll Back Discussion

[Beezerk]

When club golfers bother to go to see their pro I'd bet that most are there asking to gain distance.

Although it may not be a true litmus test I don’t know one person that has done this, it’s all about getting rid of a hook, slice, chipping woes etc.
Now buying a new club and getting fitted yes, you’d like to see some gains but that’s a completely different thing imo.

 

[Crow]

Although it may not be a true litmus test I don’t know one person that has done this, it’s all about getting rid of a hook, slice, chipping woes etc.
Now buying a new club and getting fitted yes, you’d like to see some gains but that’s a completely different thing imo.

You could be right.

 

[bobmac]

When club golfers bother to go to see their pro I'd bet that most are there asking to gain distance.

Not in my experience.
I'd say the most popular reason is to stop a hook or slice, then to stop duffs and third would be to become more consistent

 

[Crow]

Not in my experience.
I'd say the most popular reason is to stop a hook or slice, then to stop duffs and third would be to become more consistent

I'd say I was wrong then.

 

[Swango1980]

The key aim is to avoid course obsolescence or making course design and distance an ever escalating arms race.

Additionally, reducing the distance differential, reduces the gain overall that distance gives to a score. Rebalancing it to accuracy, consistency, shortgame, putting.

Surely these attributes are just as important as they ever were.

If you hit the ball 400 yards, you still have to get the ball on the green at some point. That will require approach shots, pitch shots, chip shots, etc. You still need to putt the ball when you are on the green, hitting it a long way won't help you at that point. Accuracy is probably even more important now than ever, if you are a long hitter. If you hit it a long way and are inaccurate, you'll find trouble even easier. If you are tempted to go for a green 250+ yards away, accuracy is paramount. Much more so that patting one up the fairway 160 yards, and then hitting a wedge from inside 100 yards.

 

[BrianM]

When club golfers bother to go to see their pro I'd bet that most are there asking to gain distance.

Only recently have manufacturers started talking about forgiveness as it's been proven that they've maxed out on distance for drivers, and loft strengthening on irons has reached a point where even the most gullible starts to wonder why there are no more 4 irons or they need 4 or 5 wedges to round out a set of irons.

You really think most people would ask to gain distance?

I’d say it’s more likely to fix a fault of some sort (maybe just me though )

 

[Crow]

Although it may not be a true litmus test I don’t know one person that has done this, it’s all about getting rid of a hook, slice, chipping woes etc.
Now buying a new club and getting fitted yes, you’d like to see some gains but that’s a completely different thing imo.

Not in my experience.
I'd say the most popular reason is to stop a hook or slice, then to stop duffs and third would be to become more consistent

What I had in mind was that not many people go to their pro to learn how to shape the ball or hit a low flighted shot etc.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

When club golfers bother to go to see their pro I'd bet that most are there asking to gain distance.

Only recently have manufacturers started talking about forgiveness as it's been proven that they've maxed out on distance for drivers, and loft strengthening on irons has reached a point where even the most gullible starts to wonder why there are no more 4 irons or they need 4 or 5 wedges to round out a set of irons.

I guess it will depend on the club , the pro and who is going to see them

Speaking to our new pro his lessons etc are all about looking to remove or correct swing faults , finding ways to strike the ball better , remove the duck hooks , or massive slices , plus MOTs

When it comes to those players looking to move up in the golf world will look to improve how far their hit the ball by increasing swing speed and ball speed as they grow naturally

People get enjoyment from the sport out of so many different ways beyond just hitting the ball far.

You get your enjoyment from using older clubs that have different characteristics than modern clubs , it’s all about how each person enjoys the game - and thankfully there is so many different options for people.

This weekend we played against a club who’s course is 7000 yards , ours is just 6000 - they hit the ball further than us - yet they couldn’t over power the course because it was about putting the ball in the right place not the furthest

 

[wjemather]

If we take the UK for example how many Pro events happen at the historic courses - the Open , that’s it , and those courses defence 99% is the weather. Doesn’t matter how far the pro can hit it when the course depends on the weather

The rest of the historic courses within the UK don’t host pro events and 99% of them haven’t ever really hosted Pro events - they are always at the same type of course and set up for players to score well regardless of the distance a player hits the ball

We used to see elite professional tournaments at courses like Sunningdale, Walton Heath, Royal Mid-Surrey, Ganton, Moor Park, Fulford, Little Aston, Woburn, Moortown, Sand Moor, Hunstanton, and dozens more on a regular basis. Almost all would be considered far too short for the modern game - a change driven primarily by equipment, not athleticism.

 

[Beezerk]

What I had in mind was that not many people go to their pro to learn how to shape the ball or hit a low flighted shot etc.

Right, you’re probably correct there. For me that would be having a look on YouTube, assuming the fundamentals are somewhere near correct first

 

[BiMGuy]

What I had in mind was that not many people go to their pro to learn how to shape the ball or hit a low flighted shot etc.

Most people would score worse if they tried to shape the ball in different ways every shot. We have enough trouble hitting one shape consistently.

As you say, people need to play the way they enjoy playing. If trying to his it all ways is your thing, absolutely fine. But I suspect most people would rather shoot lower scores with one shape than higher with multiple

 

[BiMGuy]

We used to see elite professional tournaments at courses like Sunningdale, Walton Heath, Royal Mid-Surrey, Ganton, Moor Park, Fulford, Little Aston, Woburn, Moortown, Sand Moor, Hunstanton, and dozens more on a regular basis. Almost all would be considered far too short for the modern game - a change driven primarily by equipment, not athleticism.

How many of them have the infrastructure and space to hold a top class professional tournament?

 

[wjemather]

It sounds like you are completely eliminating the physical attributes of the players then!?

Sure, the equipment today will hit the ball further than it did in the 1900's, 1950's, 1970's etc. However, how much further does the equipment today hit it further than it did a decade ago? And, if there is a difference, how much of that difference is due to the fact the equipment today might be more forgiving, thus off centre strikes go further? So, maybe the maximum distance hasn't gone up a lot, but the average distance has gone up more as golfers can at least more consistently get more distance from poor strikes?

I'd struggle to rule out the physical differences between pro golfers now and back in the day. When golfers are playing for millions of dollars per event, it makes sense that the science that goes into training the body and the swing go up massively. How much time do pro golfers spend in the gym today, compared to decades ago? How much investment into college has gone into golf, to produce an even bigger pool of talented golfers. How many more sporty people chose golf than some other sport, because it now looks much more appealing when you can be a multi millionaire? Not to mention that many myths have been busted by trackman, and so coaching has come a long way.

Incidentally, fat middle aged men at my club are not hitting the ball on average 299 yards at my club. If they are averaging over 200 yards, I'd be surprised.

I honestly don't know how you get any of this from what I wrote.

My comment explicitly compared people in peak condition to older, weaker and unfit versions of the same people.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

We used to see elite professional tournaments at courses like Sunningdale, Walton Heath, Royal Mid-Surrey, Ganton, Moor Park, Fulford, Little Aston, Woburn, Moortown, Sand Moor, Hunstanton, and dozens more on a regular basis. Almost all would be considered far too short for the modern game - a change driven primarily by equipment, not athleticism.

will certainly be interesting to see which Elite Professional tournaments you are talking about ?

Hunstanton - can’t see any in their list but Amatuer comps ?

Same with Ganton and a number of them

There are still elite comps being hosted at Sunningdale , Walton Heath and Woburn

And looking at the likes of Little Aston - they still hold the big Am comps , most of the reason for not hosting the big Pro events will be down to - money , course being able to have large numbers of spectators, access to the course, infrastructure for tented villages etc

Distance won’t make a difference to a course not hosting an event - Barbazaon is only 7000 yards and hosts Elite Pro events.

 

[Bdill93]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/64944020

Article suggests 10-15 yards difference with the new balls.

Don't see it making much difference in scoring at all if I'm honest.

 

[wjemather]

How many of them have the infrastructure and space to hold a top class professional tournament?

There are a few that don't (although people said that about fairly recent major venues, e.g. Merion), but many do.

 

[Jimaroid]

Confirmation of Model Local Rule.

https://www.randa.org/articles/prop...el-local-rule-option-for-golf-balls-announced

https://twitter.com/x/status/1635627044942880768

 

[Backsticks]

But we repeatedly get told on here that equipment hasn’t improved for 20 or 30 years! So has it or hasn’t it?

It has. Over thelast 20-25 years (since then nothing other than rubbish from equipment manufacturers). Hence the concern, studies, debate, and todays action.

A large part of the distance gained by pros is their intention to do so, that they are now fitter, stronger and have a better understanding of biomechanics than previous generations.

Some part is. But a greater part is the equipment. Hence why ALL golfer have been longer post approx 2003. And the vaste majority are not doing golf strengthe ing and fitness. They are just regular recreational Joe Golfer.

 

[Bdill93]

Confirmation of Model Local Rule.

https://www.randa.org/articles/prop...el-local-rule-option-for-golf-balls-announced

https://twitter.com/x/status/1635627044942880768

Helps the courses that will struggle to extend but are built to great standards and also allows for bombers courses to remain as such.

Is it going to be tricky for the pro's to adapt to a different ball every so often though?

 

[Jimaroid]

2026 implementation date seems a bit of a cop out to me. Acknowledging the problem is one thing but from there I think it would be better if they just get on with it.

Edit: There’s also some more interesting information in the proposal notice regarding CT Creep (drivers getting springier over time) and a new investigation around that.