Robin Matthews-Williams

[HomerJSimpson]

Plenty of guys knocking about that have never made any money playing that can still knock it round 5 or 6 under par.

I get the point they don't necessarily have to be a fantastic player to be a good coach but I don't want someone showing me how to hit a shot thats a lesser player than me.

I'd argue if they are still capable of shooting those scores they'd be playing even if it's the local pro-am circuits. I know a couple of really good teaching pro's locally that probably wouldn't shoot better than level par these days as they simply don't play enough but I'd trust their input on the swing. For me, someone knowing the swing and being able to teach is what I'm interested in, not what their playing credential are like. As has been said, a lot of top teaching pros have never been good enough to cut it as players or even tried to make it

 

[Parsaregood]

I'd argue if they are still capable of shooting those scores they'd be playing even if it's the local pro-am circuits. I know a couple of really good teaching pro's locally that probably wouldn't shoot better than level par these days as they simply don't play enough but I'd trust their input on the swing. For me, someone knowing the swing and being able to teach is what I'm interested in, not what their playing credential are like. As has been said, a lot of top teaching pros have never been good enough to cut it as players or even tried to make it

It's different if you had the ability at one time or another to never having the ability, just because you wernt a top tour pro does not mean you were not a great player in your own right, plenty of guys on the challenge tour and mini tours are really fantastic golfers. Point being if you can hardly hack it around your own course, is that really a standard that should be accepted of a pga pro

 

[Jacko_G]

It's different if you had the ability at one time or another to never having the ability, just because you wernt a top tour pro does not mean you were not a great player in your own right, plenty of guys on the challenge tour and mini tours are really fantastic golfers. Point being if you can hardly hack it around your own course, is that really a standard that should be accepted of a pga pro

I'm not totally disagreeing with you but spotting a deficiency or a flaw in a student's game and explaining how to rectify it can sometimes be easier than working on your own game.

I do appreciate where you are coming from but I'm not necessarily convinced it's the correct attitude. I can think of a couple of teaching professionals based at a range who have great reputations as teachers but we're never "top" amateur golfers.

Like all discussions I guess there is no "correct" answer. Just different points of view.

 

[Wolf]

It's different if you had the ability at one time or another to never having the ability, just because you wernt a top tour pro does not mean you were not a great player in your own right, plenty of guys on the challenge tour and mini tours are really fantastic golfers. Point being if you can hardly hack it around your own course, is that really a standard that should be accepted of a pga pro

So having read a few of your posts some referring to a 2 handicap and others to a challenge tour/mini tour level I'm wondering what you think is an acceptable level. Because not all those that can play to that level have the desire to teach, you yourself mention how low you got and don't want to become a pro so there will be many alike that realise they are good but not quite good enough to earn a living playing and have no desire to become a teacher. I can cite a few examples I know personally to have got to scratch, better than scratch and to the level of a 2 handicap you mention yourself that none have turned pro as they have no interest in teaching, business or even have the skills to do these things.

Likewise there will be those of a decent level sub 4 handicap that are good orators, have an affinity for learning and teaching and wish to help others but by what your saying is they shouldn't be allowed to teach, despite having a lot to offer others.

The majority of club golfers will never achieve a Cat 1 handicap let alone be capable of breaking par regularly. Most will be in the Cat 3 & 4 range and by going to someone that has achieved PGA status and spent years studying the game will improve with their assistance.

Then there's the Mars bar seller argument which I know you only quoted and didn't directly infer yourself but I do find when I've heard people say this to be completely disrespectful and usually comes from people with a complete lack of understanding what these guys do to qualify , these guys have gone out studied the game and business to earn a living helping clubs to continue running, being there for members to make sure competitions run, helping them with their games and so much more.

Imagine if these guys off their 4 handicaps that pass the PAT and study a 3 year degree course to become qualified were stopped from being eligible to be PGA Pros there would soon become a real lack of club pro entering the game and then clubs would not be in a great situation. Because as back to my original point not all those that go low are bothered by becoming professional.

Admittedly like all areas of life some of those qualified will be good at what they do and others won't, also many that qualify do so to get into club management and other areas not just teaching.

When you go to these people for help you are not paying for their ability to burn up the course because you'll find most once qualified have less time to practice than they had before due to running a business, but what you are paying for is their knowledge of swing mechanics and assistance on how to translate things into your own game.

I completely respect your opinion as we're all entitled to different view points. But imo the PGA have the balance right and the more we can get these guys and Girls into PGA positions then the game will continue in good fashion, the more we restirct them then the harder it will be in future to attract them.

Edit: what I definitely will agree on is RMW does not in my opinion portray the PGA Pro in a good light, comes across as obnoxious, uses profane language to try to make himself seem cool and put down others. People like him will appeal to a few for a little while then disappear once they realise they've ostracised themselves amongst their peers

 

[Parsaregood]

So having read a few of your posts some referring to a 2 handicap and others to a challenge tour/mini tour level I'm wondering what you think is an acceptable level. Because not all those that can play to that level have the desire to teach, you yourself mention how low you got and don't want to become a pro so there will be many alike that realise they are good but not quite good enough to earn a living playing and have no desire to become a teacher. I can cite a few examples I know personally to have got to scratch, better than scratch and to the level of a 2 handicap you mention yourself that none have turned pro as they have no interest in teaching, business or even have the skills to do these things.

Likewise there will be those of a decent level sub 4 handicap that are good orators, have an affinity for learning and teaching and wish to help others but by what your saying is they shouldn't be allowed to teach, despite having a lot to offer others.

The majority of club golfers will never achieve a Cat 1 handicap let alone be capable of breaking par regularly. Most will be in the Cat 3 & 4 range and by going to someone that has achieved PGA status and spent years studying the game will improve with their assistance.

Then there's the Mars bar seller argument which I know you only quoted and didn't directly infer yourself but I do find when I've heard people say this to be completely disrespectful and usually comes from people with a complete lack of understanding what these guys do to qualify , these guys have gone out studied the game and business to earn a living helping clubs to continue running, being there for members to make sure competitions run, helping them with their games and so much more.

Imagine if these guys off their 4 handicaps that pass the PAT and study a 3 year degree course to become qualified were stopped from being eligible to be PGA Pros there would soon become a real lack of club pro entering the game and then clubs would not be in a great situation. Because as back to my original point not all those that go low are bothered by becoming professional.

Admittedly like all areas of life some of those qualified will be good at what they do and others won't, also many that qualify do so to get into club management and other areas not just teaching.

When you go to these people for help you are not paying for their ability to burn up the course because you'll find most once qualified have less time to practice than they had before due to running a business, but what you are paying for is their knowledge of swing mechanics and assistance on how to translate things into your own game.

I completely respect your opinion as we're all entitled to different view points. But imo the PGA have the balance right and the more we can get these guys and Girls into PGA positions then the game will continue in good fashion, the more we restirct them then the harder it will be in future to attract them.

Edit: what I definitely will agree on is RMW does not in my opinion portray the PGA Pro in a good light, comes across as obnoxious, uses profane language to try to make himself seem cool and put down others. People like him will appeal to a few for a little while then disappear once they realise they've ostracised themselves amongst their peers

I think having the ability to hold a 2 hcap through a minimum number of events say 10 would be a good base point. I just personally think it's too easy to become a pga pro and you now see a lot of guys just doing it because it's another job and not really because they love the game. There has to be a competence level and playing off 4.4 for me is not competent enough to warrant my respect as a student of the game regardless of how good at the retail or business aspect they may be.
I wasted my teen years in a golfing respect, didn't play golf, took it up again when I was 20 but by that time I was already doing other things job wise, so now I'd have no interest in turning pro or doing the pga course. Never say never though.
RMW is a terrible example of a pg pro if he is one and paints the job in a very bad light. Most of what he says is nonsense and is of little value, if you watch his range sessions he absolutely slaps the ball, not sure the way he comes across fills many with confidence that he is competent.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

I know my pro thinks been able to be pga qualified off 4 handicap is way too high.
He would argue that you may be able to understand and explain the golf swing but sometimes you have to demonstrate to a pupil as well.
For me seeing the results of his striking has been quite enlightening. Similar swing speed but his numbers show longer carry, more penetrating flight and tighter dispersion plus he can move it both ways at will.
Perfect demonstration of control of the club face at impact which is my weakness at present and it shows what I can achieve with more control.
I doubt a 4 handicapper who barely plays any more could do that.

 

[Wolf]

It's funny though because a lot is getting lost in the 4 handicap argument.

Is anyone actually aware that you have to be of 4 for a year, produce a year's worth of playing results to show its not a fluke and just happened and then they're put forward to PAT and expected to get better during the duration of their course. It's not like it's a 4 handicap and off you go they have to demonstrate improvement beyond that level.

If the handicap is 3 or better then there is no PAT but still expected to show development.

Getting to a 4 handicap is just the initial part. Once they get dedicated practice time most of these guys are expected to get nearer to scratch level once they enter PGA training.

But again I go back to my point of a scratch, 2 or better handicap could still be terrible as a pro but someone a shot or 2 higher could be much more adept at teaching and learning the nuances of a swing.

In my own experience club Champ at my first course tried to turn pro he was a scratch golfer and an absolutely terrible ball striker, could barely find a fairway and even the sound of his strike was slappy but he could score so well he would always be under par, he also was a terrible teacher now works as a Van Salemans for Vauxhall because he couldn't teach.

Same time he turned pro there was a young lad off 4 working as an assistant to, always struck it crisply was a distinctly average putter so his scores didn't get a lot better but a real student of the game, with practise he got a bit better during his time as assistant to be able to play at par to +2 with the odd sub par round yet now he is head pro at a good club, has help hundreds of people improve and worked with other Pros that are better players and helped them Improve swing mechanics.

Yes there needs to a an acceptable level of ability to play/strike the ball and I think PGA have it right. But everyone is so caught up in the they have to be better than me to coach me argument, yet they'll support someone like Man Utd or Arsenal whose most successful coaches were barely better than an average amateur level but could coach and improve superstars.

 

[Parsaregood]

There is only no PAT test unless you are scratch or better, you only have to be a 4.4 handicap to start the training, no minimum time period required

 

[cliveb]

I don’t think any other sport places requirements on it’s coaches that they have to have played or competed to a certain level.

To become an instructor for the Ecole Ski Francais you have to be able to ski a slalom course faster than a certain time - and it's a very tough test. The irony is that the ESF has some of the worst ski instructors around. This seems to suggest that being able to perform to a high standard bears little relation to being able to teach.

 

[Parsaregood]

I don't think they need to be better than me, just they have to be competent and also competent enough to demonstrate proper techniques not just understand that's the way it should be done, understanding takes no skill whatsoever
The argument of football coaches isn't relevant as football isn't an individual sport, most of these guys have top players as backroom staff to put up training regimes etc scouts to help look for players, they are really just tacticians and man managers, they have competent players who actually play the game

 

[Homer]

There is only no PAT test unless you are scratch or better, you only have to be a 4.4 handicap to start the training, no minimum time period required

All the correct information is on the pga website apparently.

 

[Parsaregood]

All the correct information is on the pga website apparently.

You obviously misunderstand the text, your playing record has to be 12 months or more I.e there has to be a record of competition over a period of 12 months, you don't have to have been a 4hcap for all of that period. Also you still have to do a playability test at a later stage unless you were scratch at the time of turning pro

 

[Dogma]

I notice today from Instagram that Robin is putting together a website with his methods on.

All for the pricely sum of £40 per subscription.

Didn’t he berate Meandmygolf for the same thing?

 

[sunshine]

A bit like saying just let anybody willing to learn the retail side and do a few coaching courses become a pga pro, would you really have that much confidence taking lessons off someone you know wasn't all that competent as a player ? I wouldn't

Are you saying that you would only have lessons from someone who is/was a better golfer than you? Your confidence in their methods comes from knowledge that they have been there and done it themselves?

 

[Britishshooting]

I don't mind him as a person, I'm sure he'd be a good laugh to have a knock with as he can be witty at times on his videos with what I've seen. He actually plays a few courses near where i live.

In terms of his content creation however, it's extremely poor. He in my opinion has likely realised he's not getting far in terms of professional golf and began to resent selling mars bars for a living and getting minimum time to practice or play.

He's gone about it all wrong in my opinion, if he spent some time actually creating some decent quality footage and having some form of structure to his videos he may have grown a little more, other creators may have even worked with him.

Instead the footage is lousy, quality is low and almost all videos follow the same theme of just slagging off his peers and people who have made a success out of what he is trying to do.

Unfortunately he left his integrity in the pro shop so I think he turned a lot of people off to him before they even had the chance to listen to his side.

He's now realised he's not getting the viewership to make content creation pay for him so instead is ripping off the select few that are convinced by his methods which he'll only be able to make work for so long. In the process he's gone against his own principles so it wouldn't surprise me if some of his followers see through it and decide to turn against him.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

I’ve never heard of him before, but just seen his name mentioned on the YT Open thread...so I’ve just watched a video...oh dear!!!!

...is he always like that?

 

[Wolf]

I’ve never heard of him before, but just seen his name mentioned on the YT Open thread...so I’ve just watched a video...oh dear!!!!

...is he always like that?

Yep he's always like that, the golfing YouTube equivalent of Thrush

 

[Orikoru]

I’ve never heard of him before, but just seen his name mentioned on the YT Open thread...so I’ve just watched a video...oh dear!!!!

...is he always like that?

If you mean flippant, sarcastic, and swearing a lot then yeah. He does like the sound of his own voice but I find quite a few of his videos funny to be fair.

 

[DeanoMK]

Looks like someone's been called out

 

[Depreston]

Looks like someone's been called out

What an absolute fraud