rulefan
Tour Winner
Yes, if the ball is in the rough.
LCP in the rough is not permitted for handicap rounds
Qualifying competitions
- Thread starter Jules rules
- Start date
3offTheTee
Tour Rookie
Going back to my original post but OK if a local rule is in operation and submitting a supplementary score and other criteria hs been covered.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I don’t know the answer to this. BTW the current status of non-qualifier applies to all three or four of the clubs main organised rollups. This kicked in before the end of the normal competition season…and so not winter only. I don’t know what has triggered the change of mind by the golf management team as they were 100% that our main rollups should be WHS qualifiers. Small ones of maybe 6-12 members might not have been so designated - I don’t know.That's pretty clear.
My club seniors have made Wednesday Roll up non qualifying for the winter only. Not sure if Farnham is winter or permanent.
The society I play in does its own handicaps and last time I handed a card to my club, they wouldn't accept it. (Can't key it as events in England!)
I will add that pre-WHS we did not have any qualifying comps over the ‘off-season’ (though we could always preregister an additional card) and most of the rollups ran their own handicap adjustment system to reduce the likelihood of any player(s) winning regularly.
Last edited:
rulefan
Tour Winner
Can't remember you original but if
LCP LR is in place between the approved dates and restricted to closely mown areas and LCR LR is in place, then casual play scores are permitted.
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
The model local rule for Lift Clean and Replace in the general area is E2 but a club should still have E3 in place as well.
My understanding has always been that E2 should be a temporary local rule only bought in when course conditions or specific area warrant it.
Scores are acceptable for Handicap Handicap Purposes when it is in place
Guidance on the Rules of Handicapping
GH/4 Local Rule for Lift, Clean and Replace
Acceptable Scores are permitted when the Local Rule (Model Local Rule E2) allowing cleaning of the ball in the General Area is in place.
E-2
Cleaning Ball
Purpose. When conditions such as wet ground conditions throughout parts of the course may cause mud to stick to the ball, the Committee can choose to allow the player to lift, clean and replace the ball in the general area. Such relief should be limited to those portions of the course where needed.
While the Local Rule for Preferred Lies (Model Local Rule E-3) is designed for use only in areas cut to fairway height or less in the general area, this Local Rule can be used throughout the general area or restricted to specific areas. The Committee could choose to use both Local Rules permitting preferred lies in the fairways and cleaning the ball elsewhere in the general area.
It is not advisable to implement this Local Rule once play has begun for a stroke-play round. Doing so would allow players who had more holes to play the advantage of using it for a longer period of time. The Local Rule could be implemented once a match has begun between the play of two holes as opponents have an equal benefit.
For guidance on when and how this Local Rule may be used in order for scores to be submitted for handicapping purposes (for example, if it must be limited to fairway only), consult the rules or recommendations contained within the Handicap System operating in the local jurisdiction.
Model Local Rule E-2
"When a player's ball lies in [identify area, such as the general area, at the 6th hole, in the general area cut to fairway height or less, etc.], the ball may be lifted cleaned and replaced without penalty. The player must mark the spot before lifting the ball (see Rule 14.1) and the ball must be replaced on its original spot (see Rule 14.2).
My understanding has always been that E2 should be a temporary local rule only bought in when course conditions or specific area warrant it.
Scores are acceptable for Handicap Handicap Purposes when it is in place
Guidance on the Rules of Handicapping
GH/4 Local Rule for Lift, Clean and Replace
Acceptable Scores are permitted when the Local Rule (Model Local Rule E2) allowing cleaning of the ball in the General Area is in place.
E-2
Cleaning Ball
Purpose. When conditions such as wet ground conditions throughout parts of the course may cause mud to stick to the ball, the Committee can choose to allow the player to lift, clean and replace the ball in the general area. Such relief should be limited to those portions of the course where needed.
While the Local Rule for Preferred Lies (Model Local Rule E-3) is designed for use only in areas cut to fairway height or less in the general area, this Local Rule can be used throughout the general area or restricted to specific areas. The Committee could choose to use both Local Rules permitting preferred lies in the fairways and cleaning the ball elsewhere in the general area.
It is not advisable to implement this Local Rule once play has begun for a stroke-play round. Doing so would allow players who had more holes to play the advantage of using it for a longer period of time. The Local Rule could be implemented once a match has begun between the play of two holes as opponents have an equal benefit.
For guidance on when and how this Local Rule may be used in order for scores to be submitted for handicapping purposes (for example, if it must be limited to fairway only), consult the rules or recommendations contained within the Handicap System operating in the local jurisdiction.
Model Local Rule E-2
"When a player's ball lies in [identify area, such as the general area, at the 6th hole, in the general area cut to fairway height or less, etc.], the ball may be lifted cleaned and replaced without penalty. The player must mark the spot before lifting the ball (see Rule 14.1) and the ball must be replaced on its original spot (see Rule 14.2).
IanM
Journeyman Pro
- Joined
- May 18, 2009
- Messages
- 12,289
- Location
- Monmouthshire, UK via Guildford!
We've been allowed a free drop in the rough too..... does this disallow "qualifying comps?"
wjemather
Well-known member
You can find winter golf guidance from Wales Golf here: http://www.walesgolf.org/preferred-lies/.
And the relevant section to your question:
"GH/5 Local Rule Requiring A Ball To Be Lifted From The Fairway And Dropped or Placed In The Semi-Rough
The introduction of a Local Rule permitting lifting the ball from the fairway and dropping or placing into the semi-rough (first cut), in order to protect the fairway, is not acceptable for handicap purposes. Such a procedure is not within the Rules of Golf. An alternative solution for fairway protection is required for an Acceptable Score such as the use of preferred lies or fairway mats."
IanM
Journeyman Pro
- Joined
- May 18, 2009
- Messages
- 12,289
- Location
- Monmouthshire, UK via Guildford!
Many thanks... our instance is not moving to protect the fairway, but lift, clean and drop on a shot through the green (off the fairway)
rulefan
Tour Winner
Through the Green is no longer a recognised term in the Rules. But what you are doing is not permitted for 'qualifying' scores. The only permitted LR for a ball in the General Area excluding the fairway is Lift, Clean & Replace for a dirty ball.
IanM
Journeyman Pro
- Joined
- May 18, 2009
- Messages
- 12,289
- Location
- Monmouthshire, UK via Guildford!
Crikey. Our Saturday comps are qualifying and drops are allowed off the fairway and it’s pick and place on the fairway. So you’re saying that’s not allowed? (Not sure what you mean by LR)
DickInShorts
Newbie
LR = Local Rule
rulefan
Tour Winner
If by 'pick and place' you mean Preferred Lies or Lift, Clean and Place (within 6") that's OK.
Dropping off the fairway is not. If a ball in the rough is dirty, it may be lifted, cleaned and replaced on the original spot.
So those Saturday comps are not 'acceptable'.
Last edited:
wjemather
Well-known member
I see now - I read your initial post as dropping from the fairway into the rough, as opposed to dropping when in the rough. In which case, the relevant sections are too long to copy in full here, but essentially the permitted local rules are for preferred lies in areas cut to fairway height or less and "lift, clean and replace" elsewhere in the general area.
The provisions your club have in place are not allowed "as it may result in a player receiving free relief from areas where a ball might otherwise be unplayable (such as in areas of bushes or trees). Scores returned under such a provision would not be Acceptable Scores for handicapping purposes."
Colin L
Tour Winner
To digress.
Has anyone ever come across a satisfactory explanation of how preferred lies supposedly protect the course? The statement is made by authorities and commonly accepted, but what is the justification?
If I am in a bad bit of ground with no preferred lies, I might make that spot worse by taking a divot. If I don't take a divot, I leave it in the same state. Either way there is only the one bad spot. If I'm allowed to take a preferred lie, I play from a good spot. At best, I don't take a divot and leave the one bad spot as before. But if I do take a divot, I add another bad spot to the course. What is protective about that?
The sole purpose of preferred lies is to to give players a better game when conditions are poor. If you want to protect a course, use fairway mats.
Has anyone ever come across a satisfactory explanation of how preferred lies supposedly protect the course? The statement is made by authorities and commonly accepted, but what is the justification?
If I am in a bad bit of ground with no preferred lies, I might make that spot worse by taking a divot. If I don't take a divot, I leave it in the same state. Either way there is only the one bad spot. If I'm allowed to take a preferred lie, I play from a good spot. At best, I don't take a divot and leave the one bad spot as before. But if I do take a divot, I add another bad spot to the course. What is protective about that?
The sole purpose of preferred lies is to to give players a better game when conditions are poor. If you want to protect a course, use fairway mats.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
A very good point IMO. Probably more to do with being able to clean the ball than protect the course.
IanM
Journeyman Pro
- Joined
- May 18, 2009
- Messages
- 12,289
- Location
- Monmouthshire, UK via Guildford!
Thanks...if you cut and pasted the above, what should I be quoting to the club?
Swango1980
Well-known member
I'll be interested to hear the view of a professional greenkeeper, that I am not.
If a player has to play out of a bad lie, do they have a tendancy to dig more into the shot? At our clubs, when conditions are poor, inevitably the ball will become stationary in a depressed bit of ground, as the grass is quite patchy. So, I feel I really need to hit down on the ball to make contact. If I get a preferred lie, I get to place it on a piece of grass and I feel it promotes a shallower swing at the ball.
Also, a damaged piece of ground will recover eventually (not sure how relevant that is over winter though). But, if a player damages it more, will it not just prolong the healing period for that piece of ground? Whereas if you potentially damaged more areas of ground, but not as much, will the fairways generally recover much quicker come Spring?
Swango1980
Well-known member
It is in Appendix H of the "Guidance on the WHS Rules of Handicapping as Applied within GB & I". Specifically, it is within section GH/1, third paragraph from the end.
The guide can be found by Googling "WHS Congu"
rulefan
Tour Winner
Coiln
Over the years I have argued this point with staff at the R&A but to no avail. My impression is that they think that 'protecting the course' is a better line than 'making life easier to players'.
wjemather
Well-known member
I would just point them to the full Wales Golf guidance (linked in #67), or the more general CONGU guidance, highlighting GH/4 Local Rule for Lift, Clean and Replace which would be needed instead of "lift, clean and drop" in order for scores to be acceptable for handicapping.
It should also be noted that the club could put a request in to Wales Golf that preferred lies be extended to all (or part) of the course, although I'd have thought it unlikely to be granted.
