Qualifying competitions

[Deleted member 3432]

Hmmm. Our cub Thursday Rollup is usually 60+ members most of whom are seniors (let’s say over 55s). It’s a non-qualifier and the organisers don’t do any rollup handicap adjustments though they apply a max singles strokeplay PH of 28. This last Thursday to get into Top 10 you had to score 42pts or more. Just as well I don’t play to win…

But they do and they have taken your couple of quid...

Groups like this are a waste of time joining if you have a proper handicap. Their handicaps ensure a bad day will result in 36 pts.

My dad plays with a group like this, they really don't understand what golf is all about. Not one of them is the least bit embarrassed about someone 85 years old giving them several shots whilst hitting it 60 yards shorter than them. As long as they beat him it's OK.

I just think it's pathetic.

 

[Colin L]

the organisers ....... apply a max singles strokeplay PH of 28.

Now I wonder how got this daft idea that the organisers' handicaps are all below 28.

 

[Old Skier]

Hmmm. Our cub Thursday Rollup is usually 60+ members most of whom are seniors (let’s say over 55s). It’s a non-qualifier and the organisers don’t do any rollup handicap adjustments though they apply a max singles strokeplay PH of 28. This last Thursday to get into Top 10 you had to score 42pts or more. Just as well I don’t play to win…

Another club not interested in following EG directives on comps. That many players and not being regulated by the club. Poor attitude by the club and its committees.

 

[IanM]

I was about to say, if a group of players want a comp between themselves, so what? Is this now banned?

Mind you, if over 60 people are playing that's challenging the definition.

In their defence, its not an official competion and playing in it isn't compulsory.

 

[Old Skier]

I was about to say, if a group of players want a comp between themselves, so what? Is this now banned?

Mind you, if over 60 people are playing that's challenging the definition.

In their defence, its not an official competion and playing in it isn't compulsory.

I think the numbers of entrants make it look fairly official.

Having to sit through endless meetings where clubs moan about other clubs handicaps this club takes the biscuit IMO. A complete and utter disgrace by those who are supposed to be running the club.

60+ people having a regular friendly knock about and not being regarded as a club comp.

 

[badgergm]

Absolutely. That's why PCC has generated so many queries and challenges!

But, In the case of our Seniors, they have just rejected the notion of off season qualifiers.

Probably very sensible, if it is a wet course. Golf very different in the Winter and lack of run on the ball (for example) would mean that the handicaps would go up. PCC clearly inadequate to deal with that. Really don’t get this obsession with having qualifiers all year. For most people would mean less accurate handicaps I reckon.

 

[IanM]

PCC is perfect and awesome and only the foolish have the temerity to question it.

Apparently!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Another club not interested in following EG directives on comps. That many players and not being regulated by the club. Poor attitude by the club and its committees.

I am not sure why this has happened. At the outset of WHS ALL of our rollups were deemed qualifiers but during this year at some point and for some reason that stopped. I am guessing push-back from members not wanting their rollups to be qualifiers. I was perfectly happy as I saw the need and I know the club golf manager felt that it was absolutely the right thing to do in the spirit of WHS. And I agreed. What happened last Thursday shows just why. I will mention ?

 

[IanM]

I must be missing something. If a group of players want to go out and play golf, who has the right to tell them it must be qualifying?

I'm yet to see anything official to say that the ages old distinction between competition golf and social golf has been outlawed. Where is the line?

I wonder how many cards are being recorded by these folk? Maybe this is their only non counting of the week?

I've not seen an EG directive as I'm in Wales

 

[wjemather]

I must be missing something. If a group of players want to go out and play golf, who has the right to tell them it must be qualifying?

I'm yet to see anything official to say that the ages old distinction between competition golf and social golf has been outlawed. Where is the line?

I wonder how many cards are being recorded by these folk? Maybe this is their only non counting of the week?

I've not seen an EG directive as I'm in Wales

It's not an EG directive, it's a CONGU one, so applies equally in Wales. From the guidance:

"WHS requires that rounds in ‘organized competitions’ in an acceptable format are considered to have been pre-registered. This raises the question as to what comprises an ‘organized competition’? The term is broader than would previously have been considered by most clubs and players. Under WHS, for example, regular informal competitions, often organized as roll-ups or society events, would now fall into this category. Players have a responsibility to ensure that their scores from such events are returned to their home clubs."​

There is also advice that, for ease of score entry, clubs may wish to setup such comps on their ISV system. Note that it is the player's responsibility to return their score. However, handicap committees that are allowing scores from such competitions to go unreturned and unchecked are also not fulfilling their responsibilities.

(additional edit) Of course, for groups who have a pathological aversion to submitting such scores, there are very simple ways to make their comps unacceptable for handicapping, e.g. allowing advice, gimmes, etc.

 

[Old Skier]

I must be missing something. If a group of players want to go out and play golf, who has the right to tell them it must be qualifying?

I'm yet to see anything official to say that the ages old distinction between competition golf and social golf has been outlawed. Where is the line?

I wonder how many cards are being recorded by these folk? Maybe this is their only non counting of the week?

I've not seen an EG directive as I'm in Wales

Completely agree as long as this 60+ group who seem to be managing great scores don't enter club, county and open comps.

Clubs and members need to accept there are the odd bandits out there or have the gonads to do something about it.

 

[IanM]

That's pretty clear.

My club seniors have made Wednesday Roll up non qualifying for the winter only. Not sure if Farnham is winter or permanent.

The society I play in does its own handicaps and last time I handed a card to my club, they wouldn't accept it. (Can't key it as events in England! )

 

[Banchory Buddha]

I must be missing something. If a group of players want to go out and play golf, who has the right to tell them it must be qualifying?

I'm yet to see anything official to say that the ages old distinction between competition golf and social golf has been outlawed. Where is the line?

I wonder how many cards are being recorded by these folk? Maybe this is their only non counting of the week?

I've not seen an EG directive as I'm in Wales

It's in CONGU guidance Ian

 

[jimbob.someroo]

Hmmm. Our cub Thursday Rollup is usually 60+ members most of whom are seniors (let’s say over 55s). It’s a non-qualifier and the organisers don’t do any rollup handicap adjustments though they apply a max singles strokeplay PH of 28. This last Thursday to get into Top 10 you had to score 42pts or more. Just as well I don’t play to win…

The irony, and frustration, is that one imagines its a lot of these sort of folk that are whinging about WHS, and how it is producing higher winning scores and making things unwinnable for lower handicappers. However, had this particular group been submitting their scores as per the CONGU guidance, by this stage in the season many would have had the relevant chops. As such the winning scores would come down.

One of the biggest issues here is the PCC. Personally, and from the guidance, all comps / rollups like this should count towards your scores, as the more rounds everybody puts in, the more accurate everyone's handicaps will end up over time. But if PCC isn't going to move much, even in poorer conditions, then I can understand the reluctance to submit scores. Until WHS produces the formula for the PCC they leave themselves open to groups not wanting to submit scores.

 

[badgergm]

It's in CONGU guidance Ian View attachment 39507

isnt there also an obligation to ‘try as hard as you can’ (I’m sure it is worded differently). My issue with submitting cards in social golf is simply that I’m not trying to get as low a score ss possible. I might have different clubs in my bag, to try out. I might hit driver on holes that I play more conservatively in a ‘proper’ competition. I’ll go for a risky shot over water rather than not, cos its fun. Putting in those scores leads to a less accurate handicap. Lots of other people in same position. I’m just not going to Have those as qualifiers.

is it possible to ‘deregister’ before you start, on basis that you’re not intending to meet the ‘try your hardest’ obligation?

 

[Banchory Buddha]

isnt there also an obligation to ‘try as hard as you can’ (I’m sure it is worded differently). My issue with submitting cards in social golf is simply that I’m not trying to get as low a score ss possible. I might have different clubs in my bag, to try out. I might hit driver on holes that I play more conservatively in a ‘proper’ competition. I’ll go for a risky shot over water rather than not, cos its fun. Putting in those scores leads to a less accurate handicap. Lots of other people in same position. I’m just not going to Have those as qualifiers.

is it possible to ‘deregister’ before you start, on basis that you’re not intending to meet the ‘try your hardest’ obligation?

The wording in the regs is really badly done there. What they mean is that those types of play (roll-ups etc) should be considered 'compulsory' for handicap. You're not actually registered for a score, so the option is still with you. I've had this argument with SG, that folks have never done this before, and they're not simply going to start, it's a wholly alien concept to have a social round (however you dress it up) count towards your handicap.

If you actually do register that you're about to hand in a card, then no in that case there's no going back, you must hand in a score or you'll be on the end of a penalty score.

 

[DickInShorts]

I suspect the WHS is trying to get the rest of the world to follow the US example of all rounds counting.
However that would bring in MLS (most likely score) which is anathema to us here used to only putting scores for handicap in in medals etc.

I’m keen to put scores in for all my individual rounds so I get a handicap which reflects my golf - at many different courses

 

[Swango1980]

isnt there also an obligation to ‘try as hard as you can’ (I’m sure it is worded differently). My issue with submitting cards in social golf is simply that I’m not trying to get as low a score ss possible. I might have different clubs in my bag, to try out. I might hit driver on holes that I play more conservatively in a ‘proper’ competition. I’ll go for a risky shot over water rather than not, cos its fun. Putting in those scores leads to a less accurate handicap. Lots of other people in same position. I’m just not going to Have those as qualifiers.

is it possible to ‘deregister’ before you start, on basis that you’re not intending to meet the ‘try your hardest’ obligation?

If your competing in a roll up, where the rest of the field are submitting scores for handicap, good luck if you happen to win the competition and then state that your score will not count towards your handicap. Your reputation might get a kicking after that.

The real question is, are you genuinely going out there to "not try your hardest"? You may take on different shots than you would in the Club Championships, but presumably you'll still try your hardest to execute each shot? However, the same could be true for different types of official competition anyway. For example, I will often take on more conservative choices in a medal compared to a Stableford, but both count for handicap.

And, if you start well, surely you will continue to try and score well? If you were on 20+ points after 9, I'd imagine you'd not take on a shot that is TOO risky, if you have a much easier conservative options to keep your scoring going? Perhaps if you had a nightmare few holes, you'd start to take those risky "practice" shots. However, for me the same is true in an official competition. If I'm having a nightmare, I will often try different things in the last few holes.

I think "try your hardest" can mean different things to different people. Some might define it that a player will do everything in their power to score as high as they possibly can. However, if that were the case, I think most golfers would never be allowed to submit an acceptable score, as not many have the mentality of Tiger Woods, to put everything on the line as if their lives depended on every shot, nor the enthusiasm to keep their chin up when they've hit awful shots earlier in the round. To me, it is simply that you try and hit the best shot you can at any given point, regardless of how risky or not the shot is. You try on every hole (i.e. you don't just give up when you could still score), or intentionally hit bad shots / miss putts to score higher than you could.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

I suspect the WHS is trying to get the rest of the world to follow the US example of all rounds counting.

I have no doubt whatsoever that they are working towards that in stages. They know getting Americans to change would be impossible, so the only way to get a "world" system is by moving to as close to the Americans as possible.

 

[D-S]

I have no doubt whatsoever that they are working towards that in stages. They know getting Americans to change would be impossible, so the only way to get a "world" system is by moving to as close to the Americans as possible.

Which would be fine if Americans had a robust and working handicap system that allowed fair and honest competition. Sadly it has a worse one than most of the rest of the world, that is filled with ‘sandbaggers’ and ‘vanity caps’ that render handicap competitions virtually impossible.