Qualifying competitions

Banchory Buddha

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Which would be fine if Americans had a robust and working handicap system that allowed fair and honest competition. Sadly it has a worse one than most of the rest of the world, that is filled with ‘sandbaggers’ and ‘vanity caps’ that render handicap competitions virtually impossible.
Totally agree.
 

badgergm

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The wording in the regs is really badly done there. What they mean is that those types of play (roll-ups etc) should be considered 'compulsory' for handicap. You're not actually registered for a score, so the option is still with you. I've had this argument with SG, that folks have never done this before, and they're not simply going to start, it's a wholly alien concept to have a social round (however you dress it up) count towards your handicap.

If you actually do register that you're about to hand in a card, then no in that case there's no going back, you must hand in a score or you'll be on the end of a penalty score.
But aren’t you saying in #33 that you are pre-registered by default, I.e. no explicit registration required.
Much better to have default of not registered, and people can do so if they wish. Does depend on the seriousness of the competition obviously.
 

fenwayrich

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Our Course Committee have issued an update in which they are encouraging members to use fairway mats during the winter to protect the course. As this is not allowed under WHS unless they are compulsory and an appropriate temporary local rule is in place, it looks like we'll be prevented from putting in acceptable scores in competitions and general play until mats are made mandatory.
 

Banchory Buddha

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But aren’t you saying in #33 that you are pre-registered by default, I.e. no explicit registration required.
Much better to have default of not registered, and people can do so if they wish. Does depend on the seriousness of the competition obviously.
No I'm not. By default the WHS regs say that those forms of play are now considered to be qualifying for handicap purely by dint of being "organised", but as a player you always have to register your intent to play because despite being "organised" they are still going to be GP scores.

Don't know if I'm putting that any better than the WHS wording, don't think I am.
 

wjemather

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I have no doubt whatsoever that they are working towards that in stages. They know getting Americans to change would be impossible, so the only way to get a "world" system is by moving to as close to the Americans as possible.
Sorry, but you are mistaken. The US have moved quite substantially in their adoption of WHS; e.g. best 8 instead of best 10, removal of the "bonus of excellence", net double-bogey adjustments, etc. Most significantly however, they have accepted CR-Par (which CONGU have not) despite widespread opposition - even from people like Dean Knuth (who developed the Slope system and the old USGA handicapping system).
 

wjemather

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Which would be fine if Americans had a robust and working handicap system that allowed fair and honest competition. Sadly it has a worse one than most of the rest of the world, that is filled with ‘sandbaggers’ and ‘vanity caps’ that render handicap competitions virtually impossible.
It's a mistake to blame the system for problems created by people who wilfully abuse the system by not following the rules; such people and such problems exist regardless of the system.
 
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Banchory Buddha

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Sorry, but you are mistaken. The US have moved quite substantially in their adoption of WHS; e.g. best 8 instead of best 10, removal of the "bonus of excellence", net double-bogey adjustments, etc. Most significantly however, they have accepted CR-Par (which CONGU have not) despite widespread opposition - even from people like Dean Knuth (who developed the Slope system and the old USGA handicapping system).
There's literally nothing left of the CONGU system, we've changed everything, a large part of WHS is a cut & paste from what the USA (& yes moreso Australia) did before.
 

wjemather

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There's literally nothing left of the CONGU system, we've changed everything, a large part of WHS is a cut & paste from what the USA (& yes moreso Australia) did before.
There are many features of UHS that have been embedded in WHS, but I guess it's easier to see what isn't there.

You may be interested to learn that the old Australian handicap system was the basis for the handicap system introduced by CONGU in 1983 that would later become UHS. In some quarters it was referred to sneeringly as the "Australian System" for many years.
 

Colin L

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Which would be fine if Americans had a robust and working handicap system that allowed fair and honest competition. Sadly it has a worse one than most of the rest of the world, that is filled with ‘sandbaggers’ and ‘vanity caps’ that render handicap competitions virtually impossible.

That's a sad situation but to what extent is it caused by the system of returning scores from almost every round as opposed to being caused by people manipulating the system for whatever purpose they have in mind? Is it unrealistic to think that in GB&I we could maintain a level of compliance that ensures scores from the wider range of social games are played to the rules and are a valid demonstration of our performance on the day? Sharing a system of handicapping doesn't have to mean sharing the dodgy practices some folk get up to.
 

D-S

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That's a sad situation but to what extent is it caused by the system of returning scores from almost every round as opposed to being caused by people manipulating the system for whatever purpose they have in mind? Is it unrealistic to think that in GB&I we could maintain a level of compliance that ensures scores from the wider range of social games are played to the rules and are a valid demonstration of our performance on the day? Sharing a system of handicapping doesn't have to mean sharing the dodgy practices some folk get up to.
Because any system that relies on ’most likely score’, despite a lot of well intentioned yet widely misunderstood and applied rules/guidelines that materially effect scores on which handicaps are based, does not actually work in the real world. This is why most jurisdictions have fought shy of adopting it. If this is the direction of travel be prepared for a similar outcome as the more opportunities you afford people to manipulate the more manipulation you are likely to see.
 

3offTheTee

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If the course meets handicapping requirements and competitions are held in an acceptable format following the rules of golf, then any organised competition rounds are considered pre-registered. The seniors (or any other) section does not have the authority to opt out.
OK Moving on and I have taken WJEM post but require some clarification please so all the other experts please go gently! I am away at present but the undermentioned has been posted:

MEMBERS WINTER LEAGUE Available to Gent's, Ladies & Juniors Format: 18 Hole Individual Stableford Gent's Tees: Yellow - Ladies Tees: Red Handicap Allowance: 95% Of Your Course Handicap *Winter handicap rules will apply

Not sure what “winter handicap rules will apply“ means. We have preferred lies in the general area not just closely mown, apologies for wrong terminology. I thought of it was mot closely mown the ball could be lifted and cleaned but had to be placed on the original spot, not within 6 inches. Also realise more than 2 temporary greens and is it less than 100 yards.

Sure I have it wrong, apologies, but unsure whether this is just a way ro make them non qualifying and make it easier to run the Comps.

Clarification would be appreciated by you more knowledgeable people, many thanks.
 

rulefan

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OK Moving on and I have taken WJEM post but require some clarification please so all the other experts please go gently! I am away at present but the undermentioned has been posted:

MEMBERS WINTER LEAGUE Available to Gent's, Ladies & Juniors Format: 18 Hole Individual Stableford Gent's Tees: Yellow - Ladies Tees: Red Handicap Allowance: 95% Of Your Course Handicap *Winter handicap rules will apply

Not sure what “winter handicap rules will apply“ means. We have preferred lies in the general area not just closely mown, apologies for wrong terminology. I thought of it was mot closely mown the ball could be lifted and cleaned but had to be placed on the original spot, not within 6 inches. Also realise more than 2 temporary greens and is it less than 100 yards.

Sure I have it wrong, apologies, but unsure whether this is just a way ro make them non qualifying and make it easier to run the Comps.

Clarification would be appreciated by you more knowledgeable people, many thanks.
The words in red would make it a non qualifier. The words in green would require a different local rule to be in place. viz Lift, clean and replace.
 

3offTheTee

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Than
The words in red would make it a non qualifier. The words in green would require a different local rule to be in place. viz Lift, clean and replace.[/QUOTE
Thank you RF. On the basis of what you have said unless there is a Local Rule to cove rthe words in green from your reply and allowing for number of temps, short course etc there can be no supplementary scores submitted. Is that correct?
 

rulefan

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unless there is a Local Rule to cover the words in green
Two thoughts. If the player uses LCR when the LR is not in effect he would have to record the appropriate penalties in his score. However if he is deliberately doing this it is arguable that he is intentionally not playing to the ROG and his score is not acceptable. I prefer the latter.
 

rulie

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Two thoughts. If the player uses LCR when the LR is not in effect he would have to record the appropriate penalties in his score. However if he is deliberately doing this it is arguable that he is intentionally not playing to the ROG and his score is not acceptable. I prefer the latter.
If a player uses lift, clean and replace when the Local Rule for lift, clean and place is in effect, is he liable for penalty?
 
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