Push-Fade

bluewolf said:
Maybe my post should have read "don't need to know ALL OF it". There have already been 2 good amateur golfers (and me!!) who have posted on this thread their misgivings about some of the sub catagories. Personally, I only use 4 terms to describe my ball in flight. But that's just me, I'm not good with excess detail. I'm not saying that your knowledge isn't valid. However, I don't think that most amateurs will benefit from reading it on a forum. It's expert level knowledge, and I admire people who strive to learn such things. But, I believe that that type of knowledge should be passed on in a more personal way.
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what is the 4 terms? i would say i have 6 and thats keeping it simple.

fade, draw,slight push,slight pull and then when i over do it slice and hook!
 
I have 4.... push-draw, push-fade, block and pull.... I don't ever hook or slice it :p:p:p....... but when I do I don't have a word for it... well not one that's forum friendly :mad:
 
JustOne said:
I have 4.... push-draw, push-fade, block and pull.... I don't ever hook or slice it :p:p:p....... but when I do I don't have a word for it... well not one that's forum friendly :mad:
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what about that beautiful shot the laser arrow straight drive that has a slight draw near the end? yes I know if you watched it with a super slow-mo camera it would show the spin is imparted due to the path being ever so slightly in-to-out.

a straight push -that many do- is nearly always just a push...
if it fades at the end we dont usually bother re-saying "oops its a push fade"
similar comment for a slight pull that morphs into a draw.

So when I'm on the course and my partners hit anything but a top or duff I'll normally say "Good shot" and might even follow up with "and a lovely draw on that one too"


Personally I love everything to do with the technical aspects of the swing as I want to improve and if I don't know what could have possibly gone wrong or why the ball behaved as it did I can't amend or fix it....or attempt to fix it.


P.S I enjoy your postings James and commend the way you handle some quite derisory comments, keep it up, makes the forum an interesting place and if no-one gets personal or huffy we will all learn something.
 
HawkeyeMS said:
Isn't the dark green line of grass by Tiger's feet pointing pretty much down the centre of the fairway? Meaning Tiger is most definately aiming left. The camera is also pretty much directly behind Tiger's aim line, that's how it looks to me anyway.
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Missed this, I agree... I neither manipulated the video...... or the commentary :p
 
Interesting read (all 17 pages of it!) For me, the push/pull aspect of a shot is simply whether it started left or right of the intended target line. If it then moves further right/left then the fade/draw/slice/hook aspect comes in. It's just always the way I'd referred to it. A shot starting left and going much further left due to spin will be known as a pull hook'.

I think it's important to know whether or not the ball is at least starting on the intended target line.

If I'm playing a 175 yard par three with the flag on the right and no real hazards, I'll hit a 9 (read 6) iron aiming left of the green with my feet and body, push it so it starts on the left edge of the green and then fades further towards the pin. For me, that is a push-fade. I find this relatively easy to control and so will prefer this to trying to hit it dead straight where I've got a 'double-miss'.

A shot aimed at the centre of the green and moving slightly right is just a fade.

Just my two-cents, and agree that it's not for everyone, but seems to work for me :)
 
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JustOne said:
Missed this, I agree... I neither manipulated the video...... or the commentary :p
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Ok, I'm back in the room, not really pointy fingering or huffing either.

James, This is the way I see it, if you dont agree thats fine but please dont make derisory comments because I happen to have a different opinion. I didnt say you manipulated the video, I suggested you were manipulating your description of Tigers swing.

To me, a push is a fault. I see no reason for it, the same goes with a pull. (Explain if you disagree)

To hit the ball out to right or left of target I would align and aim right or left as if playing a straight shot in that direction. If I want the ball to draw or fade from the line I will then swing a degree right or left of that aim line. My initial ball flight is controlled by the direction I point the clubface, I think you will agree that to fade or draw you have to cut across the ball. I dont like to manipulate a push or a pull as it is IMO a fault.

P.S.
For those who dont like technical golf debates, dont read them.
.
 
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JustOne said:
My posts wasn't a dig at you :thup: it was multi-directional :mmm:..... let me reword it for you....



I have no bones with your replies, content or contribution to this or any other thread. I hope that's cleared that up :D :thup:
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James. You are without doubt one of the most interesting posters on this forum. If I was to discount what you post, I would be depriving myself of some fantastic knowledge. I know that you don't mean any insult, as I hope you know that I don't mean to disrespect your postings. I hope we can play together one day as I know I would learn more from you, than you from me. :cheers:
 
garyinderry said:
what is the 4 terms? i would say i have 6 and thats keeping it simple.

fade, draw,slight push,slight pull and then when i over do it slice and hook!
Click to expand...

I have fade, draw, power fade, power draw. Everything else is an inconsistent mistake that does not deserve a name. Only a muttered expletive that would shock a sailor.
 
SocketRocket said:
Ok, I'm back in the room, not really pointy fingering or huffing either.

James, This is the way I see it, if you dont agree thats fine but please dont make derisory comments because I happen to have a different opinion. I didnt say you manipulated the video, I suggested you were manipulating your description of Tigers swing.

To me, a push is a fault. I see no reason for it, the same goes with a pull. (Explain if you disagree)

To hit the ball out to right or left of target I would align and aim right or left as if playing a straight shot in that direction. If I want the ball to draw or fade from the line I will then swing a degree right or left of that aim line. My initial ball flight is controlled by the direction I point the clubface, I think you will agree that to fade or draw you have to cut across the ball. I dont like to manipulate a push or a pull as it is IMO a fault.

P.S.
For those who dont like technical golf debates, dont read them.
.
Click to expand...

Good post :thup:
 
Stuey01 said:
What is the difference between the power and normal variants?
Is power fade a euphemism for enormous slice? And power draw a duck hook? I'm being flippant but am genuinely interested in the answer.
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Normally a so called power fade is a push fade, as it is hit with an in to out swing. A fade hit by an out to in swing is a weaker shot. Hence the belief that fading the ball leads to a loss of distance compared to a draw, because most people fade by chopping across the ball, out to in.
 
murphthemog said:
Normally a so called power fade is a push fade, as it is hit with an in to out swing. A fade hit by an out to in swing is a weaker shot. Hence the belief that fading the ball leads to a loss of distance compared to a draw, because most people fade by chopping across the ball, out to in.
Click to expand...

Hitting in to out is chopping across the ball as well.
 
SocketRocket said:
Ok, I'm back in the room, not really pointy fingering or huffing either.

James, This is the way I see it, if you dont agree thats fine but please dont make derisory comments because I happen to have a different opinion. I didnt say you manipulated the video, I suggested you were manipulating your description of Tigers swing.

To me, a push is a fault. I see no reason for it, the same goes with a pull. (Explain if you disagree)

To hit the ball out to right or left of target I would align and aim right or left as if playing a straight shot in that direction. If I want the ball to draw or fade from the line I will then swing a degree right or left of that aim line. My initial ball flight is controlled by the direction I point the clubface, I think you will agree that to fade or draw you have to cut across the ball. I dont like to manipulate a push or a pull as it is IMO a fault.

P.S.
For those who dont like technical golf debates, dont read them.
.
Click to expand...
I think you are confusing the 'Push/Pull = bad shot' with the 'push/pull = swing-path' descriptions. In the former, the description is about the results, and it probably does mean there's a fault; in the latter, it's merely a description of the swing path, relative to 'target' and may be deliberate, so not a fault.

If your 'straight' shot is perfectly in-square-in then, on the shaped shots, you'd be hitting push-draw and pull-fade - intended shots, not faults. You are manipulating the shot, but in a purposeful method, rather than as a fault. You are absolutely correct to be aiming the club-face right/left of the target, rather than directly at it as prescribed by the 'old/bad' ball flight laws.
 
SocketRocket said:
To me, a push is a fault. I see no reason for it, the same goes with a pull. (Explain if you disagree)

To hit the ball out to right or left of target I would align and aim right or left as if playing a straight shot in that direction. If I want the ball to draw or fade from the line I will then swing a degree right or left of that aim line. My initial ball flight is controlled by the direction I point the clubface, I think you will agree that to fade or draw you have to cut across the ball. I dont like to manipulate a push or a pull as it is IMO a fault.

P.S.
For those who dont like technical golf debates, dont read them.
.
Click to expand...

I know this was directed towards James, but I disagree and would like to explain why.

Using the following as an example: Flag on the right of the green, bunker on the left, so you want to start the ball at the left side of the green and have it move towards the flag.

As I understand it, I have 2 choices...
1) Align myself and the club to the left side of the green, and swing across the ball from in to out (towards the bunker).
2) Align myself to the bunker, my club to the left side of the green and swing normally.

Maybe I'm not as comfortable with my swing yet as others are, but to me it seems much simpler to make all the adjustments when I have plenty of time to do so (at address) and use my normal swing, than set up normally and try to manipulate the path while I'm swinging.
 
I'm a simple golfer. Fade and draw are deliberate shots - trying to define sub-categories of either is fine if you have nothing better to do - but pretty pointless. Slice and hook are not deliberate. If something is not deliberate then it is the result of a fault setup or swing and whatever happens happens - and no point in trying to define it further. Try and analyse what actually happened to give you a clue where you went wrong.
 
SocketRocket said:
P.S.
For those who dont like technical golf debates, dont read them.
.
Click to expand...

Snelly is perfectly within his right to question if knowing the principles of the theory actually make for better golf. I reckon that is a valid part of the debate

it's a little dismissive to say 'don't read it' on an open forum.

there are some really good golfers on here who enjoy a technical debate, some others who, imo, see it as a magic bullet. Something to latch onto in preference to grasping the basics, having any hand/eye coordination :D

but seeing as I'm not supposed to be reading this, never mind posting. I won't mention that to my mind it's a little 'Emperors new clothes'
 
Region3 said:
I know this was directed towards James, but I disagree and would like to explain why.

Using the following as an example: Flag on the right of the green, bunker on the left, so you want to start the ball at the left side of the green and have it move towards the flag.

As I understand it, I have 2 choices...
1) Align myself and the club to the left side of the green, and swing across the ball from in to out (towards the bunker).
2) Align myself to the bunker, my club to the left side of the green and swing normally.

Maybe I'm not as comfortable with my swing yet as others are, but to me it seems much simpler to make all the adjustments when I have plenty of time to do so (at address) and use my normal swing, than set up normally and try to manipulate the path while I'm swinging.
Click to expand...

If I've got this right I think it's:

3)Align your club on the bunker, and your body even further left than that. then the ball will start on the bunk and move right toward the flag.
 
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