Push-Fade

And how many times will they do that before they realise that its the wrong solution?

based on the number of people I see aiming further left, and swinging the club round further to the left (across the ball) in an effort to 'stop slicing' it's hard to not accept that it will be .......years (and years) :fore:
 
And how many times will they do that before they realise that its the wrong solution? Will they continue to implement the change when all evidence points to the contrary? If we are talking about self diagnosis, as we appear to be, then most people will learn more from their mistakes than they will from the eventual success. They might even enjoy the journey. Or, they could visit a pro and learn that way.

I'm not so sure, the old cliche "Doing the same thing over and expecting a different result" must have some origin. People don't experiment enough in this game, they do the wrong thing and keep doing it until they master it :mad:
 
In my world:

- Fade: gentle, controlled movement of the ball right.
- Slice: big, uncontrolled movement of the ball right.

- Draw: gentle, controlled movement of the ball left.
- Hook: big, uncontrolled movement of the ball left.

The 'push' and 'pull' elements are subcategories of the above
 
I'm not so sure, the old cliche "Doing the same thing over and expecting a different result" must have some origin. People don't experiment enough in this game, they do the wrong thing and keep doing it until they master it :mad:

But that's the definition of insanity! I doubt that any naming convention would help someone who follows that mantra. Most people who genuinely wish to improve would be able to analyse their own progression quite well. If someone persists with the "aim 70 yards left and eventually find the fairway", and we all know people who do this, then no amount of in depth analysis and scientific diagnosis will help. They probably aren't that bothered about improving anyway. Obviously not bothered enough to research, practise, analyse anyway.

By the way. I'm not referring to people who aim for the left side of the fairway, and hope to hit the centre or right of the fairway.
 
As an additional (genuine) question. When were these definitions first coined?

1905 ....at about 2.31pm, just after sandwiches :thup:


The last few posts reminded me of something I read on golfWRX so I'll quote it here......

DaveLeeNC from GolfWRX said:
"Chasing good ball contact on the range" is the mortal enemy of progress in your golf swing. It is so easy to drop back to bad habits in order to fix the poor ball contact that is inevitable from a swing change (because you will probably be better at hitting the ball, initially, using the old/bad habits). It is mentally difficult to leave the range after working on something, hitting the ball BADLY, but 'making better moves'. I am reminded of trying to learn to play a difficult piece on piano or guitar. No way would you do anything other than start out REALLY/REALLY slowly. Anything else is impossible. But on the range you just go at it full steam, revert to the old stuff (even though you tell yourself that you are doing the new stuff), and make no progress. The analogy in music is trying to play Flight of the Bumblebee for the 1st time on guitar, and quickly going back to Stairway to Heaven. Then you wonder why you can't play Flight of the Bumblebee (after several hours of playing Stairway to Heaven). Happens on the range all the time (and I am as guilty as anyone)"
 
It could be written in crayon and you wouldn't understand it, why? because you're not interested.

In your world you just like to jump into these threads and dismiss as much as you can, because you can't be bothered with it you need to voice your derogatory opinion which (as it happens) doesn't really help the learning experience of others. Does everyone have to think the same as you in your world?

There ARE people out there who DO want to learn and discuss stuff, if you're so against that why post? why even read it? :confused:

I post James because I think that this stuff is confusing and over complicates what is a very simple exercise. Lots of people that read these threads are relatively new to golf and I think it is valuable for people to see that there are other ways to play and learn.

No, everyone does not need to think the same as I do. Far from it. But there is value is appreciating that for a significant number of people, understanding the theory of the golf swing bears no real relationship to being able to play well.

When you evangalise about these things in the way that you do, I feel there is some use in putting forward a counter argument. I appreciate this vexes you a little and am sorry if this has become a problem.
 
1905 ....at about 2.31pm, just after sandwiches :thup:


The last few posts reminded me of something I read on golfWRX so I'll quote it here......

I'm not really a fan of the piano analogy. I doubt very much that the average pianist spends hours wondering how best to make the index finger hit the key. It's a relatively simple manoeuvre, that doesn't really compare to the backswing. However, the ability to play an instrument beautifully, without knowing how to read music maybe is an equally tenuous comparison. A lot of people will really struggle to swing the club with all the swing thoughts that are sometimes promoted. I have a genuine issue with "paralysis by analysis". I don't doubt the validity of your knowledge. I do believe (in my opinion) that most golfers don't really need to know it. :thup:
 
A lot of people will really struggle to swing the club with all the swing thoughts that are sometimes promoted. I have a genuine issue with "paralysis by analysis". I don't doubt the validity of your knowledge. I do believe (in my opinion) that most golfers don't really need to know it. :thup:

That may be the case... but someone has to know it, else we could just scrap golf instruction period and go with the hit and hope method. The same would go for piano instructors who teach you which finger to use to hit which keys.......
 
Discuss those ways....... I'm all ears.

A player has a 54 inch chest and has trouble hitting a push-draw.... what's his options Snelly?

Not sure what a push draw is. But I would say to him don't worry about it. Jack Nicklaus didn't draw the ball either. Neither did Monty. Concentrate on getting the ball round without a draw and focus on course management and your short game. Play lots. You will get better. And lastly, eat less pies and do a bit more exercise.
 
That may be the case... but someone has to know it, else we could just scrap golf instruction period and go with the hit and hope method. The same would go for piano instructors who teach you which finger to use to hit which keys.......

Maybe my post should have read "don't need to know ALL OF it". There have already been 2 good amateur golfers (and me!!) who have posted on this thread their misgivings about some of the sub catagories. Personally, I only use 4 terms to describe my ball in flight. But that's just me, I'm not good with excess detail. I'm not saying that your knowledge isn't valid. However, I don't think that most amateurs will benefit from reading it on a forum. It's expert level knowledge, and I admire people who strive to learn such things. But, I believe that that type of knowledge should be passed on in a more personal way.
 
Maybe my post should have read "don't need to know ALL OF it". There have already been 2 good amateur golfers (and me!!) who have posted on this thread their misgivings about some of the sub catagories. Personally, I only use 4 terms to describe my ball in flight. But that's just me, I'm not good with excess detail. I'm not saying that your knowledge isn't valid. However, I don't think that most amateurs will benefit from reading it on a forum. It's expert level knowledge, and I admire people who strive to learn such things. But, I believe that that type of knowledge should be passed on in a more personal way.

I totally agree... but doesn't that quite simply come back to 'don't read what doesn't interest you'?

Learning piano doesn't interest me, if someone posts a thread about it I won't be reading it. Posts about 'ladies shrubbery' however.... :mad:

I have no issue if people choose not to read the posts I start/write. I don't think I force anyone. If you have an opinion then you should contribute it, if not then click on the thread about 'which is the best ball for a 22 h/capper' and contribute on that one :mmm:
 
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Maybe my post should have read "don't need to know ALL OF it". There have already been 2 good amateur golfers (and me!!) who have posted on this thread their misgivings about some of the sub catagories. Personally, I only use 4 terms to describe my ball in flight. But that's just me, I'm not good with excess detail. I'm not saying that your knowledge isn't valid. However, I don't think that most amateurs will benefit from reading it on a forum. It's expert level knowledge, and I admire people who strive to learn such things. But, I believe that that type of knowledge should be passed on in a more personal way.

I am in full agreement with this.

My view is that in golf, you need to be taught stance, grip, swing tempo and etiquette. You can't play the game without this. The rest needs to be learned through doing and self learning. Doing what works and stopping what doesn't. The odd lesson here and there is fine to ensure you are doing the basics correctly.
 
I totally agree... but doesn't that quite simply come back to 'don't read what doesn't interest you'?

Learning piano doesn't interest me, if someone posts a thread about it I won't be reading it. Posts about 'ladies shrubbery' however.... :mad:

I have no issue if people choose not to read the posts I start/write. I don't think I force anyone. If you have an opinion then you should contribute it, if not then click on the thread about 'which is the best ball for a 22 h/capper' and contribute on that one :mmm:

I thought that this was a discussion that I was contributing to. I never said you didn't have a right to post your comments. I discussed their use to most golfers via a public forum. If you would like to restrict my access to certain areas, then please forward me a list of topics you think I should contribute to on a daily basis. If you would like any background info that will help you to refine your choices, then I'll happily pm you my golfing history. Oh, and most of this post was tongue in cheek before anyone thinks I'm being facetious.
 
Other than that little aberration, he is right though. As interesting as the debate is, it's all a bit pointless for 99.99999% of golfers throughout the world. The shape of the shot you hit is vastly more important than its name.

Agree - bit like when I'm in the the local DIY store and my Mrs (looking at paint say) asks me 'what colour is that?'. All I can say is 'that colour'. What you call it doesn't matter - probably why Farrow & Ball paints have daft names like Elephant Breath. The colour you see is what matters NOT what it is called.
 
I thought that this was a discussion that I was contributing to. I never said you didn't have a right to post your comments. I discussed their use to most golfers via a public forum. If you would like to restrict my access to certain areas, then please forward me a list of topics you think I should contribute to on a daily basis. If you would like any background info that will help you to refine your choices, then I'll happily pm you my golfing history. Oh, and most of this post was tongue in cheek before anyone thinks I'm being facetious.


My posts wasn't a dig at you :thup: it was multi-directional :mmm:..... let me reword it for you....

I have no issue if people choose not to read the posts I start/write. I don't think I force anyone. If someone has an opinion then they should contribute it, if not then click on the thread about 'which is the best ball for a 22 h/capper' and contribute on that one.

I have no bones with your replies, content or contribution to this or any other thread. I hope that's cleared that up :D :thup:
 
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