Provisional Ball question

[HickoryShaft]

For clarification please:

Match play and my drive is fairly right and close to trees - we hear it hit a tree so could be anywhere

As I have a shot on this hole and my opponent is also a bit wayward I take a provisional with a 4 iron and put it on the edge of the fairway where it is what I think is well back from my original shot (original was with driver)

We walk up to my provisional and I announce I will play it forward before looking for my other ball which I think is further on but in the trees.

Once I have played and my opponent has played his shot we walk to the trees but notice a ball behind us in the semi rough and on inspection it is my ball (my marking on it etc). The only way it could be there is if it bounced back a long way unseen by us (you can see it has hit hard as there is a big brown mark on it - lol). Ball was found quickly so no time issues apply. It is further back than my provisional shot.

I realise that I have played the second shot with my provisional in a position that is past my original but this was because I believed that my original was much further on. Discussion with playing partner ensues and he thinks I have played my provisional so it is now in play. I believed that it was 'reasonable' to think my ball was further on so my action in playing the original was purely to speed up play - alternative was to search 50 yards further on first the come back to my provisional if my ball was not found.

I played both balls to the green - with my original I would have won the hole - with my provisional I would have drawn the hole.

Which is the correct ball to take?

This did happen in a match play at an away club (nothing too high brow just a works knockout). In the end I lost anyway but it would have been very close if I had won that hole.

Thoughts?

 

[williamalex1]

Good one , IMO you played the wrong ball by playing you p/b from a forward position of your first ball . you must play you first ball as it has been found within 5 minutes and add 2 penalty shots. The experts will be along to correct that shortly.:thup:

 

[Ian_S]

Interesting one. I'd have said you have to carry on with the provisional, but reading the rule it isn't actually clear what happens in this situation, but I don't think your actions have made the original ball lost under any of the five conditions of rule 27.

It's that word 'likely' in b) that, I think, means you should win the hole.

 

[duncan mackie]

1. you were correct in your assessement

"If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place,...."

2. you lost the hole when you played the original ball as a 'wrong ball', when 'playing both balls' - this is not an option in matchplay. However this would also need a valid claim by the opponent at the time if you though it was OK....

in the absence of a referee you have to agree with your opponenet - if he disagrees he may make a claim, and the matter is sorted out when you get back in (which can mean the match has 2 scores at any time until settled!)

 

[Foxholer]

There's a Decision (24-2b/4) that is sort of opposite - the original ball as found far further forward than as deemed 'likely' to be - and states that the actual position is irrelevant. It's the 'likely to be' that is most important.

So I'd say original ball is not deemed lost and play should continue with the original ball.

 

[HickoryShaft]

2. you lost the hole when you played the original ball as a 'wrong ball', when 'playing both balls' - this is not an option in matchplay. However this would also need a valid claim by the opponent at the time if you though it was OK....

)

We did agree that playing two balls was the best option and if it came down to that hole we would sort it out in the clubhouse afterwards. Not sure if this covers this aspect or not or if its an absolute no no so whatever we thought was OK it still means I would have lost anyway?

 

[Crow]

I think you'd be okay, the rule states:

"The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be"

The key word is likely, the fact that your ball was actually further back than where you thought it likely to be was not an issue.

Again, I wait to be corrected.


Edit, I must read threads and type faster.

 

[chrisd]

No penalty as far as I can see. The key word is "likely", you gave your reasons for why you hit the provisional and if you hit ball 1 with a driver and ball 2 with a 4 iron, all things being equal, it's likely that ball 2 will be, as you said, well short of ball 1. The rules don't appear to give a definition of "likely". I don't see anything that says you are penalised if your honest judgement of " likely" is subsequently proved wrong

 

[duncan mackie]

We did agree that playing two balls was the best option and if it came down to that hole we would sort it out in the clubhouse afterwards. Not sure if this covers this aspect or not or if its an absolute no no so whatever we thought was OK it still means I would have lost anyway?

not really - it just creates a rules mess

if your opponenet is claiming that you were in breach of rule 27-2 in playing your ball then basically you have 2 choices - 1 play the provisional as agreed with him (which despite being wrong becomes right...) or play the original ball and get a ruling when you return. In this case my ruling would be that you were correct and the claim fails - your hole.

in this case I will admit that I would be out of my comfort zone! my initial thought is that despite your acting contrary to rule 2-5, and the possible consequences in terms of rules 7, 15 and 20 (practice, wrong ball, wrong place depending on the order you actually did things), your opponent has not made a timely claim in respect of any of this, and there are no new facts. Therefore the state of the match should reflect you having won that hole. However, my one concern involves the issue of 'wrong information' and I find 2-5 and 2-5/4 unhelpful in providing clarity.

I will raise it for discussion elsewhere!

 

[rulefan]

For clarification please:

We walk up to my provisional and I announce I will play it forward before looking for my other ball which I think is further on but in the trees.

So far so good. You haven't reached the place where your original was likely to be

Once I have played .... we walk to the trees but notice a ball behind us in the semi rough and on inspection it is my ball. It is further back than my provisional shot.

This is the ball in play. Your provisional is out of it.

I played both balls to the green

As soon as you played your 'provisional', you played a wrong ball and lost the hole.

As you did not know you you had breached the rule, you did not give wrong information.
As neither of you knew the rules (ie including not playing two balls), you have not agreed to waive the rule(s).
As your opponent did not make a timely claim, the result of the hole stands.

 

[duncan mackie]

As soon as you played your 'provisional', you played a wrong ball and lost the hole.

As you did not know you you had breached the rule, you did not give wrong information.

It's this bit that causes me concerns.

Not knowing you have breached a rule is not protection from 9-2b, in fact the rule specifically states that "A player has given wrong information even if it is due to the failure to include a penalty that he did not know he had incurred. It is the player’s responsibility to know the Rules. "

However, the player has only breached the rules leading to this situation through following an agreed procedure with his opponent - so I don't think a penalty applies and therefore wrong infomation is not an issue.

Whilst I would rule that way I'm not 100% convinced - and not knowing you would be along so promptly have posted it 'elsewhere' for opinion.

 

[Foxholer]

As soon as you played your 'provisional', you played a wrong ball and lost the hole.

Can you clarify what you mean by this - as in before the first was found (the 2nd shot with that ball), or after the first ball been found (the 3rd shot with it - in the playing 2 balls situation).

 

[rulefan]

Can you clarify what you mean by this - as in before the first was found (the 2nd shot with that ball), or after the first ball been found (the 3rd shot with it - in the playing 2 balls situation).

After the original was found the second ball was longer a provisional.

Which is why I put the word in quotes. :smirk:

 

[rulefan]

It's this bit that causes me concerns.

Not knowing you have breached a rule is not protection from 9-2b, in fact the rule specifically states that "A player has given wrong information even if it is due to the failure to include a penalty that he did not know he had incurred. It is the player’s responsibility to know the Rules. "

However, the player has only breached the rules leading to this situation through following an agreed procedure with his opponent - so I don't think a penalty applies and therefore wrong infomation is not an issue.

Whilst I would rule that way I'm not 100% convinced - and not knowing you would be along so promptly have posted it 'elsewhere' for opinion.

Yes, my post was rather hasty.

I should have referred to 1-3/5 and 2-5/4 to make the case.

 

[HickoryShaft]

Interesting debate - now you can see why I asked the question.

we went round it a few times but as it didn't affect the outcome in the end we didn't come to a conclusion.

 

[Foxholer]

After the original was found the second ball was longer a provisional.

Which is why I put the word in quotes. :smirk:

Gotcha. The coding was a bit subtle for me.

not really - it just creates a rules mess

So are you saying that 'Playing 2 balls' 2-5 or 3-3 is not the panacea it's meant to be? Why - provided he/she gets the announcement, selection etc correct?

 

[duncan mackie]

So are you saying that 'Playing 2 balls' 2-5 or 3-3 is not the panacea it's meant to be? Why - provided he/she gets the announcement, selection etc correct?

2-5 prohibits the playing of 2 balls in matchplay; the process is much simpler, and more importantly, consistent with how you deal with things after they have happened as well as when you disagree before taking action.

I'm now much happier with my original ruling, and a strangely place decision, 3-3/9, also supports the key aspect of it.

 

[Ian_S]

So just to be clear, the rule in match play is that if there is a dispute about your ball and no committee member is around to get a decision, you play on under the rule as you think it is and then get a decision after the match if it turns out that hole would be decisive.

Is that correct?

 

[Colin L]

So just to be clear, the rule in match play is that if there is a dispute about your ball and no committee member is around to get a decision, you play on under the rule as you think it is and then get a decision after the match if it turns out that hole would be decisive.

Is that correct?

Pretty well. You play the one ball as you understand to be according to the Rules. It is up to your opponent to make a claim before you tee off at the next hole if he thinks you were wrong - you don't have to do anything. The claim is then considered by the Committee.

 

[HickoryShaft]

OK so in my scenario my opponent thought I should now play my provisional ball, I felt I could play my first ball so my options were to carry on with my first knowing he had made a 'claim' or accept the provisional was the ball in play and disregard the fact that I found my first ball.

I guess I should have stuck to my guns and carried on with the first ball regardless. I mistakenly played the provisional as my opponent and I discussed this as an option so I thought it would be resolved either way afterwards without realising this was not an acceptable option in matchplay.

Tough one to call on the night especially as my opponent was offering it as a solution (I should have known the rule and not relied on his view I realise that) and even if I had followed his view on the subject I would have played the wrong ball and lost the hole.

Good to clarify.