Provisional Ball played not knowing there were red stakes

[sjhoughton]

A situation happened at the weekend and I have searched and cannot find a clear ruling.
So a player tees off on a course they havent played before and they and the group are virtually certain it has gone in a penalty area when they get down to where they are sure the ball went to. Its only when they get close to the penalty area that they see its red stakes and so normally of course they can just drop and play 3rd with the usual red stake rules.
However as they didnt know it was red stakes when they were stood on the tee they played a provisional ball - so my question is - when they cannot find the ball but realise its gone into a red staked area can they play from there or do they need to play the provisional ball?
If someone knows the ruling and can point me to the randa rule number I would be most grateful.

 

[Orikoru]

If you're certain or 'virtually certain' it's gone into a red penalty area then I believe you proceed by taking a drop and playing your third. If you can't be that certain then proceed from the provisional playing your fourth.

The R&A

The R&A seeks to engage in and support activities for the benefit of the sport of golf from The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews.

www.randa.org

 

[pendodave]

This literally happened to me last night.
I took a drop from the red hazard where the ball crossed, picked up my provisional and carried on chopping up the hole.
Finally, wept silently about the triple I racked up.

 

[Swango1980]

A situation happened at the weekend and I have searched and cannot find a clear ruling.
So a player tees off on a course they havent played before and they and the group are virtually certain it has gone in a penalty area when they get down to where they are sure the ball went to. Its only when they get close to the penalty area that they see its red stakes and so normally of course they can just drop and play 3rd with the usual red stake rules.
However as they didnt know it was red stakes when they were stood on the tee they played a provisional ball - so my question is - when they cannot find the ball but realise its gone into a red staked area can they play from there or do they need to play the provisional ball?
If someone knows the ruling and can point me to the randa rule number I would be most grateful.

I'm a bit confused. You begin by saying that after the shot was taken, everyone in the group were virtually certain it had gone into the penalty area. Knowing the colour of the stakes is irrelevant at this point. A provisional can only be played if you think the ball is lost outside a penalty area or out of bounds, so it sounds like a provisional ball was not valid. If so, then there would be no choice to play the provisional ball, as it isn't actually a provisional but in play.

Had you said you were not sure it was a penalty area at all, and only found this out when you got there, then a provisional could have been played. Then, upon realising it was a penalty area and being virtually certain it was in it, you could have proceeded to take you penalty under the penalty area rules, and abandon the provisional.

 

[sjhoughton]

Thank you for your replies

So it was a par 3 and to the right of the green was out of view from the tee and we didn’t know what was down there. (So a provisional was played) As we walked down to the green we realised that to the right of the green was red stakes and we all agreed the ball must have gone in there.

However, one of our group then said because he had played a provisional he could only play the first one if he found it.

I know it’s normally straight forward if it’s seen and agreed from the tee but the hole was an unusual set up and it was only as we walked down we realised it must have gone in to the red staked area.

 

[Swango1980]

Then, as you were not aware of the penalty area after the original was hit, you were entitled to play a provisional. Then, once you got down there you realised there was a penalty area, and were virtually certain it was in there. At that point, the original was ball in play, not the provisional. If you didn't find it, take a penalty drop from penalty area using the options available to you

 

[Backsticks]

Then, as you were not aware of the penalty area after the original was hit, you were entitled to play a provisional. Then, once you got down there you realised there was a penalty area, and were virtually certain it was in there. At that point, the original was ball in play, not the provisional. If you didn't find it, take a penalty drop from penalty area using the options available to you

I dont think so. Since you didnt know there was a penalty area (if thats the correct understanding despite the confusion in the opening post), you cannot be virtually certain it is in there. Finding a penalty area when you get there, and not finding your ball, I dont think is grounds enough for virtual certainty. That needed to happen back on the tee with knowledge that the penalty area as there. So you are penalised for your lack of knowledge of the course - but having it not visible in the first place is weak course design.

 

[Maninblack4612]

I dont think so. Since you didnt know there was a penalty area (if thats the correct understanding despite the confusion in the opening post), you cannot be virtually certain it is in there. Finding a penalty area when you get there, and not finding your ball, I dont think is grounds enough for virtual certainty. That needed to happen back on the tee with knowledge that the penalty area as there. So you are penalised for your lack of knowledge of the course - but having it not visible in the first place is weak course design.

Yes you can be virtually certain. If you're sure the ball carried far enough & was definitely far enough right then the ball can't be anywhere else. Post #6 was spot on.

 

[Swango1980]

I dont think so. Since you didnt know there was a penalty area (if thats the correct understanding despite the confusion in the opening post), you cannot be virtually certain it is in there. Finding a penalty area when you get there, and not finding your ball, I dont think is grounds enough for virtual certainty. That needed to happen back on the tee with knowledge that the penalty area as there. So you are penalised for your lack of knowledge of the course - but having it not visible in the first place is weak course design.

You are incorrect. You don't have to be virtually certain it is in penalty area immediately after playing shot off tee. You can become virtually certain afterwards when new information comes to light, and proceed accordingly.

 

[Steven Rules]

A situation happened at the weekend and I have searched and cannot find a clear ruling.

If someone knows the ruling and can point me to the randa rule number I would be most grateful.

The Rule is 18.3c(3)

When Provisional Ball Must Be Abandoned. When a provisional ball has not yet become the ball in play, it must be abandoned in either of these two cases:

• When Original Ball Is Found on Course Outside Penalty Area Before the End of the Three Minute Search Time. The player must play the original ball as it lies.
• When Original Ball Is Found in Penalty Area or Is Known or Virtually Certain to Be in Penalty Area. The player must either play the original ball as it lies or take penalty relief under Rule 17.1d.

 

[salfordlad]

I dont think so. Since you didnt know there was a penalty area (if thats the correct understanding despite the confusion in the opening post), you cannot be virtually certain it is in there. Finding a penalty area when you get there, and not finding your ball, I dont think is grounds enough for virtual certainty. That needed to happen back on the tee with knowledge that the penalty area as there. So you are penalised for your lack of knowledge of the course - but having it not visible in the first place is weak course design.

This is a significant misunderstanding of the requirements relating to assessment of KVC.

The player has until 3 minutes after search commences to decide whether KVC applies and bases the decision on all information gathered in that period. Any subsequent new information cannot be considered.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This is a significant misunderstanding of the requirements relating to assessment of KVC.

The player has until 3 minutes after search commences to decide whether KVC applies and bases the decision on all information gathered in that period. Any subsequent new information cannot be considered.

KVC must surely relate solely to the physical location of the ball.

If, as here, it is only when the KVC location of the ball is reached that the red stakes and penalty area become evident (new information that can be used to inform the decision making), and at that point the KVC physical location of the ball is in that area - that any provisional previously played is discarded and the original ball becomes the ball in play to be dropped out of the PA accordingly.

 

[salfordlad]

KVC must surely relate solely to the physical location of the ball.

If, as here, it is only when the KVC location of the ball is reached that the red stakes and penalty area become evident (new information that can be used to inform the decision making), and at that point the KVC physical location of the ball is in that area - that any provisional previously played is discarded and the original ball becomes the ball in play to be dropped out of the PA accordingly.

If the information is learned after search period ends, it is irrelevant and cannot influence whether KVC applies at the 3 minute point. See Clarification KVC/2.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If the information is learned after search period ends, it is irrelevant and cannot influence whether KVC applies at the 3 minute point. See Clarification KVC/2.

Ah right… your point about irrelevant new information relates in this instance to the specific context of the search period. Got it.