Premium for Membership

[Grant85]

Just wondering what people think of paying a premium for golf membership in terms of how much golf you get for your money.

Reason being there are a lot of members clubs who now offer green fees online, (such as teeofftimes.co.uk). These fees often look pretty affordable compared to cost of membership.

I get that there are other benefits in terms of holding a handicap, playing in competitions, making it easier to arrange a game and playing on Saturdays etc. The big one for me is just to go down on an evening and play 6 or 9 holes to yourself, get a bit of fresh air and work on a few things.

In Glasgow the cost of golf seems crazy expensive compared to most other areas of Scotland. Basically £1,000 a year for an 18 hole / par 70-72 type course. In reality it varies from £900 or so, to £1,500+.

Many are still operating an entry fee. I get that this can be a tricky thing to give up - especially if at any one time you have a number of people paying this up monthly. And you'd imagine that the clubs doing this are healthy clubs with decent membership levels. Dropping the entry fee confirms to many that you are not.

But in general, golf here is pricey when some of the same clubs have tee off times deals at £25 or less to play weekends or evenings. Less during the day and the dreaded Sunday evening - which most courses still appear to be nearly empty on.

This seems to be the way golf is going for many people and as long as they have a few mates near them to arrange games with - it will continue to make more sense for them rather than to join somewhere at additional cost. They will also convince themselves that being able to play a different course every week is an advantage - something I would dispute to an extent.

Clubs also risk losing members to this type of golf and it must be tricky to find a happy medium for. Especially if a member looks up to see some Saturday or midweek evening times being advertised for £20 - £25.

Another factor is if you are spending £1,000+ on a membership, the chances of you spending much to play elsewhere are pretty remote.

Maybe clubs need to adapt to a new type of membership that does take into account how often you play and at what times you play. £900 to £1,200 is obviously more palatable if you play every Saturday and 2 or 3 midweek games.

Also maybe clubs make a bit more of reciprocal deals with other courses that you can play and even have a 'swap' day where you have a competition on at the reciprocal course, and vice versa. Possibly also enabling more pay as you play golf as well to boost the clubs finances.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Golf clubs structure their membership costs to ensure they can provide a golf course - clubs will offer credits which people can use when they play but any club that has membership where people pay for the level that they play will struggle to keep up a quality course

And courses that offer the tee times on those websites for cheap are already struggling i would suggest - clubs that are doing well won’t need to offer cheap deals

And people that only play at the weekend will unfortunately pay a premium

 

[pendodave]

I joined my club after playing a nice inexpensive twilight a few years back.

Managed correctly these things can be used to attract new members by letting them see what a nice course/friendly atmosphere it is. I always have a cheery creating for our green fee visiters...

 

[Sweep]

I would be the first to extol the benefits of a golf club membership. Most members will tell you there is so much more to membership than playing golf.
However, you are absolutely correct when you say clubs need to add benefit to membership. Many clubs are facing difficulties because almost every club is practically begging their members to become “nomads” (regular golfers without a club). For example at my club you could pay to play 37 rounds as a visitor before you reached the subscription amount. I am quite sure most members haven’t realised.
Every club that has done the maths will know that the vast majority of its income comes from its members. Most members will spend almost double their subscription at their club in the form of food, drinks, social functions, pro shop spend, comp entry fees etc. It’s high time the clubs realised this and started to put their members first. Giving away tee times for less and less money to visitors who may turn up once or twice a year is simply devaluing the club’s own product and is a constant slap in the face for those who support the club year after year. And of course it’s all done under the guise of keeping subscription levels down. If the clubs continue down this road it will be their downfall.
Thrse figures say it all:
Average visitor fee 1990 - £20
Average visitor fee 2012 - £22 (average increase 10%)
Average membership 1990 - £250
Average membership 2012 - £1000 (average increase 400%)

Who do you think is paying the true cost of playing golf?

 

[Grant85]

Golf clubs structure their membership costs to ensure they can provide a golf course - clubs will offer credits which people can use when they play but any club that has membership where people pay for the level that they play will struggle to keep up a quality course

I'm sure that would be the case, barring a wholesale change in all clubs.

But seems very strange to me that clubs in Glasgow are charging double what many other private clubs in Scotland are charging. I get that it's a big population base, but I don't get the impression that most clubs in Glasgow are bursting at the seams with members. And the cost of running a club / course will not be massively different across the country.

And courses that offer the tee times on those websites for cheap are already struggling i would suggest - clubs that are doing well won’t need to offer cheap deals

I don't think that is necessarily the case, albeit it will be in some cases. As long as this was done only at certain times and with membership agreement, it seems a sensible way to bring in extra cash and hopefully get a few more people interested in playing regularly. Perhaps these deals are more prevalent this year because of the good weather and a few extra bodies on a course isn't going to put a dent in the course.

 

[duncan mackie]

Agree with what Phil says.

In addition there are already a phenomenally large number of membership options available at various clubs around the country - that those you are considering don't offer them is their choice in line with the crux of Phil's reply. These include, but aren't limited to, all of the options you reference.

Clubs, of whatever underlying structure, are always looking to ensure the appropriate level of use to best enable the maintenance of what is, fundamentally, an expensive resource (except in parts of Scotland where land was cheap and the sheep do most of the mowing).

The changing ratio of employment costs to course costs is what seems to be causing the biggest issues in Scotland; it's affecting everywhere but not to the same degree.

Ultimately it doesn't matter if you are a municipal course or premium exclusive - you have to match the income you can derive with the cost of delivery of a service that maintains demand.

Oh, and £1000 pa is significantly below the baseline 7 day membership in the South.

 

[IanM]

Newport is member owned...still has joining fee and is pretty much full...
Most 7 day members seem to be relatively local and retired. £1000 a year is about £20 a week. Most of them seem to play about three times a week. So, £7 a round is crazy value!

Poor mugs like me who pay the same, work away during the week and average less than one round each week over course of the year! Roll on retirement

 

[Grant85]

I would be the first to extol the benefits of a golf club membership. Most members will tell you there is so much more to membership than playing golf.
However, you are absolutely correct when you say clubs need to add benefit to membership. Many clubs are facing difficulties because almost every club is practically begging their members to become “nomads” (regular golfers without a club). For example at my club you could pay to play 37 rounds as a visitor before you reached the subscription amount. I am quite sure most members haven’t realised.
Every club that has done the maths will know that the vast majority of its income comes from its members. Most members will spend almost double their subscription at their club in the form of food, drinks, social functions, pro shop spend, comp entry fees etc. It’s high time the clubs realised this and started to put their members first. Giving away tee times for less and less money to visitors who may turn up once or twice a year is simply devaluing the club’s own product and is a constant slap in the face for those who support the club year after year. And of course it’s all done under the guise of keeping subscription levels down. If the clubs continue down this road it will be their downfall.
Thrse figures say it all:
Average visitor fee 1990 - £20
Average visitor fee 2012 - £22 (average increase 10%)
Average membership 1990 - £250
Average membership 2012 - £1000 (average increase 400%)

Who do you think is paying the true cost of playing golf?

This was certainly the main point I was making, albeit with other points included.

Seems that there is only one way this is going, unless members get more benefits or golf becomes a flatter playing field where we separate green fees from golf membership more decisively.

 

[Hobbit]

LP pretty much covered it. There is a cost to providing a course, clubhouse, tractor, staff etc etc. If you look at the balance sheet you're unlikely to see major profits at most clubs - if they were making huge profits, they'd lose their partial VAT exemption.

Basically, your answer is can be found in the balance sheet. If there's profits, or wastage, there's something wrong. If the balance sheet is balanced, and the end product, i.e. the course and clubhouse, satisfies your needs the fees are fair.

 

[Grant85]

Oh, and £1000 pa is significantly below the baseline 7 day membership in the South.

I'm sure, but Im talking about big differences only 15 or 20 miles away in Scotland.

I know people could easily put up with that distance (and many do) but it can't cost that much more to run a course in Glasgow than it does in a neighbouring county.

Maybe its more a case of these courses becoming reliant on higher fees 20 or 30 years ago when golf clubs were full of members and now they can't really reverse that reliance.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Like everything in life, things cost what people are prepared to pay and those offering are prepared to take.
Down here in sunny Kent, I'm paying just about £1200 pa for 7 day membership, and no tee times. To me, thats worth every penny. What muni or pay and plays there are around here start at a minimum of £30 a round, and you have to book tee times and endure the antics of some.

 

[DCB]

I thought some of our clubs were expensive, but, seems the Glasgow clubs are a bit more expensive. Both Cities have seen members clubs go to the wall in recent years, so, there is a problem, but, not all golf membership has to cost an arm and a leg. It depends on what you are looking for, somewhere to play golf, or, a Club that you want to belong to.

I know folks from Glasgow and surrounds who travel down the coast to play their golf, greatly reduced costs at many courses. Even the Municipal setup in South Ayrshire can make a huge saving if you don't mind travelling.

 

[Grant85]

I thought some of our clubs were expensive, but, seems the Glasgow clubs are a bit more expensive. Both Cities have seen members clubs go to the wall in recent years, so, there is a problem, but, not all golf membership has to cost an arm and a leg. It depends on what you are looking for, somewhere to play golf, or, a Club that you want to belong to.

I know folks from Glasgow and surrounds who travel down the coast to play their golf, greatly reduced costs at many courses. Even the Municipal setup in South Ayrshire can make a huge saving if you don't mind travelling.

The Ayrshire deal is amazing value but ultimately it’s not a club and you have to arrange all your own games and won’t get a handicap etc. Plus just that bit further away for a midweek game when I would be playing more often.

Ideal scenario, when I’m well off & only have to work 2 days a week is to have a membership close to home & get the Ayrshire deal for some variety & games when it has been wet.

Getting ahead of myself here.

 

[williamalex1]

Membership prices vary in the Lanarkshire area from around £650 to over £1000.
Best thing I did was starting a monthly Direct Debit to the club, immediately after paying my first years fees. You can pay any amount you wish then pay the balance when fees are due, you can also get the cash back if you decide not to re-join.
Take it off the joint account, the misses might not even notice it for a while, mine didn't :rofl:

 

[Dasit]

1200 quid for 25-29 subsidised membership.

Goes up to about 1800 when I get a few years older and have to pay full.

Worth it for me at the moment as I can play 2 or 3 times a week. I do wonder in the future if it is value, when I am back working in the city and will only get a chance to play at weekends.

 

[Hobbit]

I'm sure, but Im talking about big differences only 15 or 20 miles away in Scotland.

I know people could easily put up with that distance (and many do) but it can't cost that much more to run a course in Glasgow than it does in a neighbouring county.

Maybe its more a case of these courses becoming reliant on higher fees 20 or 30 years ago when golf clubs were full of members and now they can't really reverse that reliance.

It can even be something like the size of the pro shop and the quality/experience and reputation of the club pro. A decent pro could cost the club £25k+ per year as a retainer quite easily. If there's 500 members, then each member paying £2 generates £1,000 = £45 from each member's subs for the pro's retainer.

If its a well known club, with a bit of prestige, its at least that again for a chef, and then there's steward + staff. Club Manager, and Head Greenkeeper and staff.

A very rough calculation sees each member paying over £300 a year just on wages.

The balance sheet will also tell you how much the business rates and utilities are, and if you want to see another large bill have a look at the diesel consumption for the equipment.

Yes, being a nomadic golfer can work out cheaper, and if there's a few of you then you can set up your own society and arrange comps etc. But if you want to be able to pop down of an evening for 9 holes, or spend time on the practice ground, or play snooker or or or, then its club membership. Its down to personal choice. There's no right/wrong answer, you get what you pay for.

 

[Grant85]

you get what you pay for.

My point was asking if you really do get what you pay for.

Accepting all of the other stuff in your post, it does seem that many club members are subsidising nomadic golfers and the pricing structures are such that membership just may not seem like worthwhile value to many, meaning that clubs finances are only going to get tighter.

Also given the number of clubs that enforce a bar levy along with fees, it seems that having a chef and kitchen service is barely worth the hassle & clubs are increasingly struggling to justify it.

 

[Hobbit]

My point was asking if you really do get what you pay for.

Accepting all of the other stuff in your post, it does seem that many club members are subsidising nomadic golfers and the pricing structures are such that membership just may not seem like worthwhile value to many, meaning that clubs finances are only going to get tighter.

Also given the number of clubs that enforce a bar levy along with fees, it seems that having a chef and kitchen service is barely worth the hassle & clubs are increasingly struggling to justify it.

I think there's elements that are difficult to put a figure on. For example, at a club I was a member of for 30 years I could go in there at any time and sit down with friends, play snooker or go out and be almost guaranteed a game with people I know. Could I do that as a nomad? No. Is it worth the difference? It is to me.

As to what nomadic golfers, on cheap fees, do for a golf club? Imagine what the annual member's fees would be if the club didn't attract £50k worth of visitors.

As to kitchens and a chef. Some clubs have switched business models and now franchise out the catering. It reduces financial risk but doesn't return money to the club, other than the drinks that diners buy.

At the end of the day, you make a choice that suits you. Some will switch to being a nomad, whilst others would vote for membership every time.

 

[Grant85]

I think there's elements that are difficult to put a figure on. For example, at a club I was a member of for 30 years I could go in there at any time and sit down with friends, play snooker or go out and be almost guaranteed a game with people I know. Could I do that as a nomad? No. Is it worth the difference? It is to me.

As to what nomadic golfers, on cheap fees, do for a golf club? Imagine what the annual member's fees would be if the club didn't attract £50k worth of visitors.

As to kitchens and a chef. Some clubs have switched business models and now franchise out the catering. It reduces financial risk but doesn't return money to the club, other than the drinks that diners buy.

At the end of the day, you make a choice that suits you. Some will switch to being a nomad, whilst others would vote for membership every time.

Completely agree with your 1st point, which is why I will always try & justify being a club member. Albeit if I had a few friends that I knew would play golf regularly I’d maybe be happier as a nomadic golfer. But as it is I am hassling them to play once or twice a year and they can always find an excuse.

however as you say, that kind of relaptionship with a club is built up over many years & even for new members who are sociable and can spend time in a club may take a few years and / or a few clubs to find the right place.

 

[IanM]

Just seen how little St Enodoc charge for subs......Enough to make me sell up and move house!. I guess the green fee traffic keeps them low... nice!