Practice during round

[Swango1980]

Take 2 players A and B
A hits a tee shot down the left, cant find it, cant be bothered to walk back and just chucks a ball down and carries in the knowledge he has blobbed.
B hits a tee shot down the left, cant find it, drops another ball roughly where he thinks his tee shot should have been, thinking this is the correct thing to do.

you want me to believe A gets a 2 shot pen on the next hole but B doesn't?

Thats what I find hard to get, I suppose if A specifically says he was having a practice he could be in trouble, but even then I am am doubtful as I often carry on playing and tbf its practice.

I appreciate that particular dilemma. In player B's case however, it is obvious that they were firmly believing that they were carrying out the hole under the rules of golf, until it was pointed out that they were not (and they wouldn't get away with making the same mistake again, or not easily at the same club anyway). So, I have conceded in this case that it could be considered that the player had played from thew wrong place. In Players A case, they did know that they were out of the hole so at no point after that did they ever believe they were continuing to play the hole.

I'm sure there are other (less controversial rules) where the penalty may be different depending on the intent of the player.

 

[robinthehood]

I appreciate that particular dilemma. In player B's case however, it is obvious that they were firmly believing that they were carrying out the hole under the rules of golf, until it was pointed out that they were not (and they wouldn't get away with making the same mistake again, or not easily at the same club anyway). So, I have conceded in this case that it could be considered that the player had played from thew wrong place. In Players A case, they did know that they were out of the hole so at no point after that did they ever believe they were continuing to play the hole.

I'm sure there are other (less controversial rules) where the penalty may be different depending on the intent of the player.

I'm not seeing any intent in the op beyond the player knowing his actions will put him out of the hole. I'm still of the mind that it's just a blob and no more

 

[Swango1980]

You are trying to read another players mind though, if it had been a Stroke Comp and he NR’d the hole all the added penalties in the world are irrelevant as he is out of the comp for incorrectly dropping and playing on with a 2nd ball.
Your saying the only reason a player would do it in a Stableford Comp is for dishonest reasons.
They may actually know the rules and when dropping a ball on the fairway they are happy to take the penalty for that shot as they also know it will make no difference to the card.
Surely the only way you could be sure is if you ask the player his intentions when they drop a ball and play the hole out.

In no way at all am I saying a player is doing it dishonestly, albeit in some cases that may be sadly true. The hugely vast majority of rules infringements are never made intentionally or dishonestly, but they are still applied and accepted.

In my scenario above, the player specifically dropped the ball 168 yards from hole to practice their tee shot on next hole. Clear and obvious, but you are saying "we shouldn't judge the intent of the player". Maybe you are right, which is why the rules try and take judgement out of it. What if the player accidentally admitted that they were practising their shot for the next hole? At that point would you consider they are hitting a practice stroke. They've told you their intent. If yes, then you are saying as long as the player never openly admits it, they can't be called out on it? If no, then I guess we can all hit as many practice strokes as we like if we mess up a hole on Stableford.

For those that that a penalty is not correct, please tell me what rules I can apply to stop players hitting practice strokes in the manner above? I don't care how much you've paid for the round, how nice a course it is, how upset you'd be if you had to walk to next tee, etc. I'm only talking about the rules as they should be applied based on how they are read. The only rules others have quoted are to specifically ensure players are not penalised for continuing to play the hole (as if in a medal) once they exceed their shot limit. I've played hundreds of Stableford rounds over years, and had and witnessed hundreds of blobs. In most of those cases, the player either continued the hole as per normal anyway or picked up around the green or when at gimme range. I can honestly admit at no point in a competition, have I ever witnessed a player just giving up on the hole and then just dropping a ball down and hitting an approach shot anyway. I've only seen that done in a social round, which I'm not bothered by. So, I'm not sure why certain posters are getting so emotional about losing out on playing some of a hole they've already blobbed. Get over it, if you were that bothered you'd go back and play 3 off the tee.

 

[Orikoru]

Haha, I think OP has had an absolute mare here (although he's not been back to see the carnage, it seems that Swango has taken over).

You're allowed to finish a hole you can't score on in Stableford for God's sake. All the player did was take an illegal drop and then finish the hole - result of that being a blob for the hole anyway, yes? You can't just give him a two shot penalty on the next hole! What an absolute farce. No wonder the guy went mad at him.

 

[effayjay]

Is anyone here in a position to seek a definitive answer from the R&A ?

Opinions seem pretty entrenched and contradictory and further discussion seems unlikely to get us much further..

 

[Kellfire]

Is anyone here in a position to seek a definitive answer from the R&A ?

Opinions seem pretty entrenched and contradictory and further discussion seems unlikely to get us much further..

Those of us who can read have provided a definitive answer.

 

[Orikoru]

Is anyone here in a position to seek a definitive answer from the R&A ?

Opinions seem pretty entrenched and contradictory and further discussion seems unlikely to get us much further..

It looks like one person has argued your case while everybody else disagreed with him pretty much. You've had a nightmare, there's no way you should have given him a 2 shot penalty on the wrong hole.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

In no way at all am I saying a player is doing it dishonestly, albeit in some cases that may be sadly true. The hugely vast majority of rules infringements are never made intentionally or dishonestly, but they are still applied and accepted.

In my scenario above, the player specifically dropped the ball 168 yards from hole to practice their tee shot on next hole. Clear and obvious, but you are saying "we shouldn't judge the intent of the player". Maybe you are right, which is why the rules try and take judgement out of it. What if the player accidentally admitted that they were practising their shot for the next hole? At that point would you consider they are hitting a practice stroke. They've told you their intent. If yes, then you are saying as long as the player never openly admits it, they can't be called out on it? If no, then I guess we can all hit as many practice strokes as we like if we mess up a hole on Stableford.

For those that that a penalty is not correct, please tell me what rules I can apply to stop players hitting practice strokes in the manner above? I don't care how much you've paid for the round, how nice a course it is, how upset you'd be if you had to walk to next tee, etc. I'm only talking about the rules as they should be applied based on how they are read. The only rules others have quoted are to specifically ensure players are not penalised for continuing to play the hole (as if in a medal) once they exceed their shot limit. I've played hundreds of Stableford rounds over years, and had and witnessed hundreds of blobs. In most of those cases, the player either continued the hole as per normal anyway or picked up around the green or when at gimme range. I can honestly admit at no point in a competition, have I ever witnessed a player just giving up on the hole and then just dropping a ball down and hitting an approach shot anyway. I've only seen that done in a social round, which I'm not bothered by. So, I'm not sure why certain posters are getting so emotional about losing out on playing some of a hole they've already blobbed. Get over it, if you were that bothered you'd go back and play 3 off the tee.

In your scenario you are saying he’s doing it dishonestly, I do actually see what your saying, but it’s a roll up we’re on about and I don’t think anybody ever drops a ball with the intent of practising, they simply playing the hole in the knowledge that it doesn’t matter to their score for the hole and it’s better than just walking it.

 

[Backache]

In your scenario you are saying he’s doing it dishonestly, I do actually see what your saying, but it’s a roll up we’re on about and I don’t think anybody ever drops a ball with the intent of practising, they simply playing the hole in the knowledge that it doesn’t matter to their score for the hole and it’s better than just walking it.

My reading is that the competition was a qualifier but the roll up group were critical.
I can see both sides I know which I feel is correct but agree that there is an element of doubt and will await.

 

[effayjay]

It looks like one person has argued your case while everybody else disagreed with him pretty much. You've had a nightmare, there's no way you should have given him a 2 shot penalty on the wrong hole.

Thanks for your reply, it was almost helpful.

 

[Swango1980]

In your scenario you are saying he’s doing it dishonestly, I do actually see what your saying, but it’s a roll up we’re on about and I don’t think anybody ever drops a ball with the intent of practising, they simply playing the hole in the knowledge that it doesn’t matter to their score for the hole and it’s better than just walking it.

I'm completely with you on that, as I've said previously, I wouldn't penalise him in a social round (in the OP situation, I'm not sure how serious their "roll-ups" are, so I can't put myself in his direct position in terms of enforcing anything).

If it was clear in the Rules, or the Interpretations, that a player could drop a ball roughly were they lost it and play on from there (rather than anywhere they like for example that may help them in a future hole), then I'd be completely happy with that. I just can't find that statement anywhere, so I'm wondering how we compare the situation from the OP (where the player may be practising to get his swing back, or not) to where it is blatantly obvious they are practising. There seems to be a big grey area in between, unless you are one of course that think blatantly practising is OK anyway.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I'm completely with you on that, as I've said previously, I wouldn't penalise him in a social round (in the OP situation, I'm not sure how serious their "roll-ups" are, so I can't put myself in his direct position in terms of enforcing anything).

If it was clear in the Rules, or the Interpretations, that a player could drop a ball roughly were they lost it and play on from there (rather than anywhere they like for example that may help them in a future hole), then I'd be completely happy with that. I just can't find that statement anywhere, so I'm wondering how we compare the situation from the OP (where the player may be practising to get his swing back, or not) to where it is blatantly obvious they are practising. There seems to be a big grey area in between, unless you are one of course that think blatantly practising is OK anyway.

The rules do have nuances though with Stableford in particular, A player can play a tee shot on a hole, say 400yd Par 4 walk up to it, pick it up and walk the hole and put a NR down, failure to hole out, but perfectly acceptable in Stableford, has picked up because he’s tired, doesn’t like the hole or for manipulating his handicap purposes, nothing you can do about it,
Or as he struggles with a 9I he plays the hole using only a 9I as he’s not bothered about the comp and sees it as a chance to sneek some practise in?
Both are morally wrong, but can you prove the guy has used the 9I option for practise without him admitting it.

 

[Orikoru]

I'm completely with you on that, as I've said previously, I wouldn't penalise him in a social round (in the OP situation, I'm not sure how serious their "roll-ups" are, so I can't put myself in his direct position in terms of enforcing anything).

If it was clear in the Rules, or the Interpretations, that a player could drop a ball roughly were they lost it and play on from there (rather than anywhere they like for example that may help them in a future hole), then I'd be completely happy with that. I just can't find that statement anywhere, so I'm wondering how we compare the situation from the OP (where the player may be practising to get his swing back, or not) to where it is blatantly obvious they are practising. There seems to be a big grey area in between, unless you are one of course that think blatantly practising is OK anyway.

The rule broken is an illegal drop. Then he completes the hole as he otherwise would, with the penalty for the illegal drop, and fails to score on that hole. Then everyone moves on with their lives. To interpret it any other way is wilfully being a pain in the backside.

 

[effayjay]

To clarify, the context was that it was a qualifying competition where players can book their own times to play. The format was Stableford.

I agree that there is some doubt about whether the strokes were practice strokes or not. The exclusion of strokes made “when the result of the hole has been decided” is ambiguous. To me “result”implies matchplay whereas for strokeplay I would have thought the term would be “score”.

The fact that the penalty is applied to the next hole is also significant. It appears to acknowledge that there is no point in applying penalty strokes where the maximum number of strokes available to a player on that hole have already been taken.

 

[Swango1980]

The rules do have nuances though with Stableford in particular, A player can play a tee shot on a hole, say 400yd Par 4 walk up to it, pick it up and walk the hole and put a NR down, failure to hole out, but perfectly acceptable in Stableford, has picked up because he’s tired, doesn’t like the hole or for manipulating his handicap purposes, nothing you can do about it,
Or as he struggles with a 9I he plays the hole using only a 9I as he’s not bothered about the comp and sees it as a chance to sneek some practise in?
Both are morally wrong, but can you prove the guy has used the 9I option for practise without him admitting it.

In the 9 iron scenario, I suppose he could do that in medal, if he wasn't bothered about the comp. If Stableford, even if using a 9 iron he is still applying the correct rules when doing so. Same as taking an iron of the tee instead of driver to give yourself 9 iron distance to green, which might help you in the next hole which is a 9 iron for you. That wouldn't be considered practice, even though you are using it as practice. You could even admit to it and no problem, as you were legitimately playing the hole. In the first scenario, that would be fine as in no way is he gaining any advantage

 

[effayjay]

The rule broken is an illegal drop. Then he completes the hole as he otherwise would, with the penalty for the illegal drop, and fails to score on that hole. Then everyone moves on with their lives. To interpret it any other way is wilfully being a pain in the backside.

Tell me more about the illegal drop.

 

[Swango1980]

The rule broken is an illegal drop. Then he completes the hole as he otherwise would, with the penalty for the illegal drop, and fails to score on that hole. Then everyone moves on with their lives. To interpret it any other way is wilfully being a pain in the backside.

OK then. Once I blob the hole can I take an "illegal drop" on the next tee box, par 3, and play a shot to the green, knowing it still only costs me a blob on the previous hole?

 

[robinthehood]

OK then. Once I blob the hole can I take an "illegal drop" on the next tee box, par 3, and play a shot to the green, knowing it still only costs me a blob on the previous hole?

you're being silly now.

 

[Backache]

Tell me more about the illegal drop.

Presumably the drop that he made in the wrong place or failure to take Stoke and distance when his ball was lost, but in the belief that he could play out the hole in accordance with the rules.
Whether this constitutes practice remains moot untill we have a resolution.

 

[Orikoru]

Tell me more about the illegal drop.

Penalty for playing the ball from the wrong place (i.e. dropping it where he stood instead of replaying previous stroke) is two penalty shots. So he takes his 2 penalty shots, completes the hole, blobs it obviously, then moves onto the next hole. Job done.