Practice during round

[effayjay]

Late to commenting, and yes, I've read every post over the last few days as the thread has developed....

The crux of the issue remains the apparent miss match between the additional definition for stableford in 5.5b/1 and the obvious clarity of the last bullet in 5.5a.

This has not been addressed in the R&A response quoted.

If the intention is for there to be some additional delineation of specific acts that trigger a shift in status from playing out the hole without the ability to score to being between holes, prior to holing out, then this needs to be clear - equally if their isn't then the last point in 5.5b/1 needs work!

So do you believe that in this incident there was indeed a breach of the rules?

 

[robinthehood]

So do you believe that in this incident there was indeed a breach of the rules?

100%, just not the one you think.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So do you believe that in this incident there was indeed a breach of the rules?

The question is after seeing what’s be posted by other rules officials and indeed the R&A - would you apply the penalty the next time someone just threw a ball down and played it ?

 

[chrisd]

The question is after seeing what’s be posted by other rules officials and indeed the R&A - would you apply the penalty the next time someone just threw a ball down and played it ?

Question 2 is - Does the OP you intend to apologise to the player that he referred to and explain that he got it wrong?

 

[duncan mackie]

So do you believe that in this incident there was indeed a breach of the rules?

I don't think it's the intention of the rules for the players actions to constitute a breach of 5.5a. But that wouldn't be the basis for a ruling.

As set out in my post I see an issue between the very specific wording in the interpretation and the apparently general permissive nature of 5.5a with regards to the continued play of a hole.

There is a small area between picking up....and subsequently deciding to restart from a different position, that might fit both wording and intention, but I wouldn't be comfortable to rule along those lines. The whole concept around 'picking up' is rather vague - is it the physical act? (But where does this sit with a player who picks up his ball in a relief situation, realises he can't score but then drops his ball correctly and continues?)

Where the player to have paced out to 168yds in specific practice for the next par 3 of that length (as raised as an example earlier in the thread) I would expect to use 1.2 to penalise him. Other than that, and the possible implications to delay of game (more likely if he went back to the tee to play his (possibly) 9th stroke, then continued to hole out.

My immediate reaction to the question when posed was 'what's the issue?', people do this all the time in some guise or another during a stableford round. After consideration I have concluded I would refer the decision for the reason set out. I expect the answer to be that there's no breach - but look forward to the explanation with interest...

 

[rulefan]

So do you believe that in this incident there was indeed a breach of the rules?

The only breach was when the player dropped and played from the wrong place.

 

[rulefan]

Late to commenting, and yes, I've read every post over the last few days as the thread has developed....

The crux of the issue remains the apparent miss match between the additional definition for stableford in 5.5b/1 and the obvious clarity of the last bullet in 5.5a.

This has not been addressed in the R&A response quoted.

If the intention is for there to be some additional delineation of specific acts that trigger a shift in status from playing out the hole without the ability to score to being between holes, prior to holing out, then this needs to be clear - equally if their isn't then the last point in 5.5b/1 needs work!

In this case I can't see how 5.5b/1 applies.

When the player has holed out, or has picked up after scoring zero points, losing the hole or reaching the maximum score.

During the time he was hitting the ball after the drop
He has not holed out,
He has not picked up after scoring zero points
He has not lost the hole
He has not reached the maximum score

He only got the DQ when he finished 'playing out' the hole.

 

[rulefan]

Thank you, that’s helpful.

Out of interest what are the other scenarios you are discussing

I can't go over the whole discussion but it boiled down to 2 points.

1) the player doesn't have to make any declaration but it would be helpful if the player does say something so that there is no doubt over their actions.
2) it’s really just a point of fact
(My understanding of the latter is that one of the items list in 5.5b/1 has to have occurred)

 

[duncan mackie]

In this case I can't see how 5.5b/1 applies.

When the player has holed out, or has picked up after scoring zero points, losing the hole or reaching the maximum score.

During the time he was hitting the ball after the drop
He has not holed out,
He has not picked up after scoring zero points
He has not lost the hole
He has not reached the maximum score

He only got the DQ when he finished 'playing out' the hole.

Thank you for your detailed reply.

If I may stay focused on the 'picking up'; you clearly interpret this exactly as written ie he has not physically picked up his ball in play.

As he no longer had a ball play this fact is difficult to dispute.

Do you believe that the intention here is that if a player does pick up their ball because they don't want to continue to play the hole, but then subsequently drops a ball and continues to make a stroke at that one, he would be in breach of 5.5, and subject to penalty applicable to the next hole because he is doing so between holes, and outside the terms of any exception?

 

[rulefan]

Duncan
Good question. I must admit that detail did not feature in my discussion. Let me cogitate. But at the moment I don't feel inclined to strain the goodwill I have by having another go at my friends at the R&A.

 

[Swango1980]

Thanks Duncan and rulesfan.

I think finally we may be getting to the bottom of why there are the differences in opinion.

Rulesfan has assumes "picking up" means literally. This did not happen in the OP, therefore you can say no penalty. I get that.

My interpretation of "picking up" is giving up, whether literally picking ball up or not. If that was correct, then Duncan makes the point that a penalty would apply as your between 2 holes.

So, that probably needs more clarity in the Rules.

 

[robinthehood]

Thanks Duncan and rulesfan.

I think finally we may be getting to the bottom of why there are the differences in opinion.

Rulesfan has assumes "picking up" means literally. This did not happen in the OP, therefore you can say no penalty. I get that.

My interpretation of "picking up" is giving up, whether literally picking ball up or not. If that was correct, then Duncan makes the point that a penalty would apply as your between 2 holes.

So, that probably needs more clarity in the Rules.

Bit of revisioning going on...the op makes no mention of picking up. It always seemed quite clear what to do and tbf was answered correctly straight away in the thread.

 

[rulefan]

Rulesfan has assumes "picking up" means literally.

I have not expressed an opinion either way. But surely, if he has not picked up and has not taken any of the actions in 5.5b/1 he is still playing the hole and therefore is not practising?
A question not an answer.

Edit. I have just seen the post above and would confirm my original (now confirmed) view. He simply played from the wrong place, SB, no correction, hole over, DQ - no score - no practice.
This has nothing to do with picking up.

 

[Swango1980]

Yes, you are right. He definitely hasn't literally picked a ball up, so yes, you could argue he hasn't completed the hole.

But, take exactly the same situation where he did find the ball, unplayable, no where to drop and didn't want to go back to tee. So, they blob hole and pick up their ball, then just drop it somewhere else and play on. Duncan also asked this question. Would they have then completed the hole as they picked up their ball? If so, Rule 5.5b applies, not 5.5a, despite the fact the scenarios and intent of the player are effectively the same. That's all I'm.trying to clarify.

 

[rulefan]

So, they blob hole and pick up their ball, then just drop it somewhere else and play on.

Isn't that just a breach of 9.5b and then 14.7 ?

Again, not an answer but a question

 

[Kellfire]

And the trolling continues.

 

[Swango1980]

Isn't that just a breach of 9.5b and then 14.7 ?

Again, not an answer but a question

9.5b isn't relevant in that case, as that deals with an opponent moving a players ball, not the player himself.

 

[rulefan]

9.5b isn't relevant in that case, as that deals with an opponent moving a players ball, not the player himself.

Oops, you didn't spot the typo. 9.4b

 

[Swango1980]

Oops, you didn't spot the typo. 9.4b

Yes, that's one interpretation, but it seems at odds with the fact that it is also stated elsewhere that in Stableford, when the ball is picked up, the hole is completed. I know I'm repeating myself, but I assure you only because you asked (would be impolite to ignore you).

 

[rulefan]

No. The words in the rule are "He has not picked up after scoring zero points"