Practice during round

[effayjay]

I am a little confused now.

All the talk about dropping in the wrong place seems to be over complicating the scenario. Let’s be clear, when he couldn’t find the ball he stopped playing the hole, he was having a bad round and simply couldn’t be bothered to go back to the tee. No assumptions here, that’s what happened, he told me afterwards. His subsequent strokes on that hole were, in layman’s terms, practice strokes, no ifs, no buts. The question of whether they were “practice strokes” according to the rules of Golf is the one at issue. As I read it, given the contributions by Duncan and Rulefan, there is, as yet, no clarity in this regard ( I may be wrong but that’s how I read it). Let’s see what transpires.

To those who think I have been over zealous, let me add some context. I didn’t raise the issue with the player at the time. I did consult my Players Guide to the Rules of Golf which simply says that practice is not allowed during the round save for chipping or putting etc. It makes no mention of some of the subtleties that have been discussed here regarding what are not practice strokes. However, as he was having a disastrous round I decided not to raise it at that point as he had enough going on with his game and I didn’t want to upset him further. At the end of the round I raised the issue with him and referred to what it said in the players guide. He had scored 21 points. I raised it mainly as it mattered little but didn’t want him to fall foul of what by then we both by now believed to be a breach of the rules on another occasion when his round was more successful.

I played with him yesterday and will play with him again on Thursday when I will update him on the fun we have had in this thread. If I got it wrong I will of course apologise. If Iwas wrong, then so be it. Nobody died or got hurt, or lost a comp. The decision was made in good faith based on the available information (The Players Guide).

I do believe that the rules are the rules as far as qualifying rounds are concerned. To answer LiverpoolPhil about giving advice I think it should be enforced even for “take your time”. If I haven’t asked for your advice then just keep it to yourself, unless you are a pro your advice is irrelevant and annoying. If this is you ( and in fairness this might not be you Phil) stop it.

As for those who have been offensive in this thread please have a word with yourself. It’s Golf.

 

[Swango1980]

No. The words in the rule are "He has not picked up after scoring zero points"

Ok, no penalty this. But, it would be a penalty if, for example, a scratch golfer on a par 4 couldn't find original ball or first provisional. Found 2nd provisional, couldn't score anymore as they already had 5 shots. Picked it up. Then dropped somewhere on fairway and played on.

Thanks for the clarification

 

[rulefan]

I am a little confused now.

All the talk about dropping in the wrong place seems to be over complicating the scenario. Let’s be clear, when he couldn’t find the ball he stopped playing the hole, he was having a bad round and simply couldn’t be bothered to go back to the tee. No assumptions here, that’s what happened, he told me afterwards. His subsequent strokes on that hole were, in layman’s terms, practice strokes, no ifs, no buts. The question of whether they were “practice strokes” according to the rules of Golf is the one at issue. As I read it, given the contributions by Duncan and Rulefan, there is, as yet, no clarity in this regard ( I may be wrong but that’s how I read it). Let’s see what transpires.

I am sorry that you are not satisfied with what I have passed on from the R&A. I have today discussed the matter with other senior referees and they would rule as I would.
If you are not happy with the information you have received, you or your committee are entitled to contact the R&A via their website and query the exact situation with them. I can assure you that legitimate queries from clubs take precedence over informal emails.
I'm afraid I can add no more.

 

[Backache]

I am a little confused now.

All the talk about dropping in the wrong place seems to be over complicating the scenario. Let’s be clear, when he couldn’t find the ball he stopped playing the hole, he was having a bad round and simply couldn’t be bothered to go back to the tee. No assumptions here, that’s what happened, he told me afterwards. His subsequent strokes on that hole were, in layman’s terms, practice strokes, no ifs, no buts. The question of whether they were “practice strokes” according to the rules of Golf is the one at issue. As I read it, given the contributions by Duncan and Rulefan, there is, as yet, no clarity in this regard ( I may be wrong but that’s how I read it). Let’s see what transpires.

To those who think I have been over zealous, let me add some context. I didn’t raise the issue with the player at the time. I did consult my Players Guide to the Rules of Golf which simply says that practice is not allowed during the round save for chipping or putting etc. It makes no mention of some of the subtleties that have been discussed here regarding what are not practice strokes. However, as he was having a disastrous round I decided not to raise it at that point as he had enough going on with his game and I didn’t want to upset him further. At the end of the round I raised the issue with him and referred to what it said in the players guide. He had scored 21 points. I raised it mainly as it mattered little but didn’t want him to fall foul of what by then we both by now believed to be a breach of the rules on another occasion when his round was more successful.

I played with him yesterday and will play with him again on Thursday when I will update him on the fun we have had in this thread. If I got it wrong I will of course apologise. If Iwas wrong, then so be it. Nobody died or got hurt, or lost a comp. The decision was made in good faith based on the available information (The Players Guide).

I do believe that the rules are the rules as far as qualifying rounds are concerned. To answer LiverpoolPhil about giving advice I think it should be enforced even for “take your time”. If I haven’t asked for your advice then just keep it to yourself, unless you are a pro your advice is irrelevant and annoying. If this is you ( and in fairness this might not be you Phil) stop it.

As for those who have been offensive in this thread please have a word with yourself. It’s Golf.

Firstly you have changed your story as to what happened and how you discussed it . This is what you said first time.

Playing a stableford qualifier last week when guy who’s card I’m marking loses his ball from his tee shot on 10th. Evidently, he can’t be bothered going back so he plays another into the green just for interest and putts out. I had assumed that he had found his ball, I was marking his card and when asked to clarify his score on the hole he explained “ no score just played one down”. On the next hole he scores a 5 and after this I consult my players guide to the rules and advise him it’s a 2 shot penalty and that he has, in fact scored a seven on that hole.

When we got in I was called for all sorts by our roll up. What would you have done?

Secondly if in lay mans terms it was practice . How the hell did his ball get from his bag or pocket in lay mans terms? I suggest he may of dropped it. Whether he had or had not given mentally up at that point he still had not declared he had given up he carried on and holed out as you are permitted to do by the rules of golf.

Your first account sounds a somewhat mean spirited set of actions which is possibly why you got the reception you did. Your second somewhat adjusted account sounds more reasonable but an incorrect interpretation of the rules.
I will point out you didnt ask whether or not the ruling was correct, but gave the impression you were making the ruling and told him he had score 7 not 5 (erroneously as it turns out)

 

[robinthehood]

It's probably time to admit you got it wrong....

 

[effayjay]

I am sorry that you are not satisfied with what I have passed on from the R&A. I have today discussed the matter with other senior referees and they would rule as I would.
If you are not happy with the information you have received, you or your committee are entitled to contact the R&A via their website and query the exact situation with them. I can assure you that legitimate queries from clubs take precedence over informal emails.
I'm afraid I can add no more.

Please read what I have said. My reading of both your posts and Duncan’s posts is that there remains an element of doubt as to whether a breach occurred. If I am mistaken then I apologise.

 

[effayjay]

It's probably time to admit you got it wrong....

It’s probably time for you to go to bed.

 

[effayjay]

Firstly you have changed your story as to what happened and how you discussed it . This is what you said first time.



Secondly if in lay mans terms it was practice . How the hell did his ball get from his bag or pocket in lay mans terms? I suggest he may of dropped it. Whether he had or had not given mentally up at that point he still had not declared he had given up he carried on and holed out as you are permitted to do by the rules of golf.

Your first account sounds a somewhat mean spirited set of actions which is possibly why you got the reception you did. Your second somewhat adjusted account sounds more reasonable but an incorrect interpretation of the rules.
I will point out you didnt ask whether or not the ruling was correct, but gave the impression you were making the ruling and told him he had score 7 not 5 (erroneously as it turns out)

For the sake of not being rude I probably need to tell you that I am ignoring this post.

 

[rulefan]

Please read what I have said. My reading of both your posts and Duncan’s posts is that there remains an element of doubt as to whether a breach occurred. If I am mistaken then I apologise.

If you

Please read what I have said. My reading of both your posts and Duncan’s posts is that there remains an element of doubt as to whether a breach occurred. If I am mistaken then I apologise.

I am perfectly happy about the way I would rule. As you are the originator of the question and are still doubtful, why not contact the R&A? Then you can put this to bed. Which is where I am going now

 

[Backache]

For the sake of not being rude I probably need to tell you that I am ignoring this post.

Ignore away but how can you in the same post state.
''He had scored 21 points. I raised it mainly as it mattered little but didn’t want him to fall foul of what by then we both by now believed to be a breach of the rules on another occasion when his round was more successful.''
AND
''I do believe that the rules are the rules as far as qualifying rounds are concerned. To answer LiverpoolPhil about giving advice I think it should be enforced even for “take your time”.

 

[effayjay]

Ignore away but how can you in the same post state.
''He had scored 21 points. I raised it mainly as it mattered little but didn’t want him to fall foul of what by then we both by now believed to be a breach of the rules on another occasion when his round was more successful.''
AND
''I do believe that the rules are the rules as far as qualifying rounds are concerned. To answer LiverpoolPhil about giving advice I think it should be enforced even for “take your time”.

Still ignoring.

 

[Swango1980]

If you

I am perfectly happy about the way I would rule. As you are the originator of the question and are still doubtful, why not contact the R&A? Then you can put this to bed. Which is where I am going now

Rulefan, ultimately you have still.had to seek advice from the R&A to clarify your stance, which clearly implies there was at least an element of doubt. You must also realise that the vast majority of golfers do not have the benefit of a direct line to the R&A, so at minimum the rules need some tidying up. Most other rules are obvious and can be easily cleared up.

I know that you do not care what I say or the OP, but I gather there is a lot of respect for Duncan, who has at least conceded as much, that there could be an element of doubt. Yet not once would anyone dare criticize him, nor should they.

The OP has simply said they applied the rule as they saw fit at the time, and also open to being wrong. It was innocent. Perhaps they could contact the R&A themselves, but as you say, their query is unlikely to get a quick reply unless done officially via their club.

Therefore, we ask and discuss these things on a forum like this to seek quicker answers. Doesn't help though when others chip in with obnoxious irrelevant comments (not you rulefan)

 

[PJ87]

Still ignoring.

Ah we are at the fingers in the ears la la la I'm not listening phase when challenged to a changing story

Do the decent thing and offer your friend an apology

Especially when he only scored 21 points because your error took away points for his perfectly legal bogey

 

[rulie]

Rulefan, ultimately you have still.had to seek advice from the R&A to clarify your stance, which clearly implies there was at least an element of doubt. You must also realise that the vast majority of golfers do not have the benefit of a direct line to the R&A, so at minimum the rules need some tidying up. Most other rules are obvious and can be easily cleared up.

I know that you do not care what I say or the OP, but I gather there is a lot of respect for Duncan, who has at least conceded as much, that there could be an element of doubt. Yet not once would anyone dare criticize him, nor should they.

The OP has simply said they applied the rule as they saw fit at the time, and also open to being wrong. It was innocent. Perhaps they could contact the R&A themselves, but as you say, their query is unlikely to get a quick reply unless done officially via their club.

Therefore, we ask and discuss these things on a forum like this to seek quicker answers. Doesn't help though when others chip in with obnoxious irrelevant comments (not you rulefan)

The original poster could also ask the Committee at the club whether or not there should be a penalty applied to the player's score. After all, a marker is not a referee and should not be applying penalties to the player he is marking for.

 

[Swango1980]

Still ignoring.

Well effayjay, I still have to say that I think the penalty was correct as you thought originally, as controversial as that might appear to some in here.

Once the player gave up and didn't go back to tee, I think it is a completely logical assumption that they had completed the hole at that point. Had you been by their side, and knew what was happening, you could have stuck a big fat zero points on their card before proceeding with the hole yourself. If it is assumed they have completed the hole, then they are between the play of 2 holes, and we all seem to agree a practice stroke can't be made at that point otherwise the penalty applies to next hole.

The difference is, many in here think the player can put another ball back in play anywhere they like after apparently completing the hole, we think they can't until they go back to tee.

If the former are correct, it leads to all sorts of potentially ridiculous situations, some of which I've already stated. Another. What if they didn't drop another ball down but walked straight to next tee. They saw a range ball, took full set up and took a full swing to smack it back in range. Is that a practice stroke between 2 holes? I would have thought so, but if they haven't holed out on last can they just claim they were playing from wrong place. Or, is the difference that the ball is not his or says Range on it so it can be deemed a practice stroke. What if he dropped his own ball.down and hit it on range? Maybe that's a practice stroke as he's not aiming at the correct green?

Also, what if player does what he did, then drops another ball down, a 3rd, a 4th, etc. Is he just playing the wrong ball now, so still the penalties only apply to the blob hole. At what point do we start saying this isn't on, we'll need to invoke Rule 1.2 as he is not playing in the spirit of the game. That's difficult if he genuinely believes he is doing nothing wrong and using the rules to his advantage.

If this incident occurred at our club, and I was on Committee and asked to make the decision, my only argument to say no penalty would he "majority of golfers on forum believe it's no penalty, and rulefan asked his contact at R&A". As rulefan is apparently someone with high standard in regard to the Rules, hopefully he'd agree that this would be a poor response if he were in the same position, easily challenged by the player calling the penalty. However, out of respect of rulefan and others, my approach would be different now. Before this thread, I'd have said the penalty applied. However, now that this thread has exploded into this, I'd refer the decision directly to the R&A.

 

[robinthehood]

All getting a little embarrassing now. Why is it so hard to accept you're wrong?

 

[SammmeBee]

If the the Rules were written to penalise someone for carrying on after they can’t score then everyone who tapped in for 6 for 0 after missing their bogey putt would then also have to be penalised - under the way you want (wrongly) to interpret it.

Just accept the Rule and that you were/are wrong and move on!

 

[martynripley]

Between the play of two holes, the player may practice putting or chipping on or near the putting green of the hole last played, any practice putting green or the teeing ground of the next hole to be played in the round. hop over to here

 

[chrisd]

So much of post 255 uses "assumes", "apparently" etc. These words all mean that guess work is being used. I haven't seen anything that confirms a player is considered to have completed a hole because he didnt go back to the tee, it is quite common that he drops a ball and carrys on and making an "assumption" is something I've not seen in the rules, so is it right that someone who, after all, is NOT refereeing the player can just make an assumption and stick a 2 shot penalty on the players card. We, pretty much everyone, said that it happens in Stableford and gave the rule book definitions to show it is not against the rules and is not considered practice, confirmation of this has been given by the R& A and still 2 people continue to be adamant they are right.

If it was so wrong would the rules change in 2019 have allowed players to hit a ball that could be lost to take a drop back on the fairway, under penalty and play on which we all could, of course, have been doing had it not been for CONGU intervention?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I am a little confused now.

All the talk about dropping in the wrong place seems to be over complicating the scenario. Let’s be clear, when he couldn’t find the ball he stopped playing the hole, he was having a bad round and simply couldn’t be bothered to go back to the tee. No assumptions here, that’s what happened, he told me afterwards. His subsequent strokes on that hole were, in layman’s terms, practice strokes, no ifs, no buts. The question of whether they were “practice strokes” according to the rules of Golf is the one at issue. As I read it, given the contributions by Duncan and Rulefan, there is, as yet, no clarity in this regard ( I may be wrong but that’s how I read it). Let’s see what transpires.

To those who think I have been over zealous, let me add some context. I didn’t raise the issue with the player at the time. I did consult my Players Guide to the Rules of Golf which simply says that practice is not allowed during the round save for chipping or putting etc. It makes no mention of some of the subtleties that have been discussed here regarding what are not practice strokes. However, as he was having a disastrous round I decided not to raise it at that point as he had enough going on with his game and I didn’t want to upset him further. At the end of the round I raised the issue with him and referred to what it said in the players guide. He had scored 21 points. I raised it mainly as it mattered little but didn’t want him to fall foul of what by then we both by now believed to be a breach of the rules on another occasion when his round was more successful.

I played with him yesterday and will play with him again on Thursday when I will update him on the fun we have had in this thread. If I got it wrong I will of course apologise. If Iwas wrong, then so be it. Nobody died or got hurt, or lost a comp. The decision was made in good faith based on the available information (The Players Guide).

I do believe that the rules are the rules as far as qualifying rounds are concerned. To answer LiverpoolPhil about giving advice I think it should be enforced even for “take your time”. If I haven’t asked for your advice then just keep it to yourself, unless you are a pro your advice is irrelevant and annoying. If this is you ( and in fairness this might not be you Phil) stop it.

As for those who have been offensive in this thread please have a word with yourself. It’s Golf.

I think what this has now come down to is trying to save a little bit of face , you were wrong to apply the penalty to the person score and it’s prob just stubbornness or not wanting to be wrong that stops you from realising it. Right at the start you were giving the correct ruling but continued to ignore it - clarity was given to you simple as that

The one point you have prob ignored is - you are not the referee of someone else game unless you have been deemed so , you are there to mark his scorecard with the score he gives you - if you believe he should have had a penalty then you can suggest it and offer the rule number or show him it but it’s up to him to add that penalty to his score , if he disagrees with you and you still think you are right then your option is to not sign his card and go to the committee for the ruling. It is also irrelevant what score he had overall.

Up and down the land thousands of golfers throw down another ball in Stableford if they are out of the hole - some have just the one shot some complete the hole either way no one gets penalised for it because the hole hasn’t been completed , if you really want to stretch the rules and interpret them to apply a penalty I think that says to me you are more interested in looking to penalise someone than anything else.

As for the take you time - it’s said a thousand times a day by golfers , it’s just someone being nice at the end of the day and I’m not sure what sort of person would actually penalise them for giving advice.

What should be learnt ultimately from this is - you are not the referee for others , you are a player and you can referee yourself but you are a players marker.

We have all at times giving the wrong advice in regards a penalty- I have and admitted and correct the mistake. Maybe it’s time you did

Well effayjay, I still have to say that I think the penalty was correct as you thought originally, as controversial as that might appear to some in here.

Once the player gave up and didn't go back to tee, I think it is a completely logical assumption that they had completed the hole at that point. Had you been by their side, and knew what was happening, you could have stuck a big fat zero points on their card before proceeding with the hole yourself. If it is assumed they have completed the hole, then they are between the play of 2 holes, and we all seem to agree a practice stroke can't be made at that point otherwise the penalty applies to next hole.

The difference is, many in here think the player can put another ball back in play anywhere they like after apparently completing the hole, we think they can't until they go back to tee.

If the former are correct, it leads to all sorts of potentially ridiculous situations, some of which I've already stated. Another. What if they didn't drop another ball down but walked straight to next tee. They saw a range ball, took full set up and took a full swing to smack it back in range. Is that a practice stroke between 2 holes? I would have thought so, but if they haven't holed out on last can they just claim they were playing from wrong place. Or, is the difference that the ball is not his or says Range on it so it can be deemed a practice stroke. What if he dropped his own ball.down and hit it on range? Maybe that's a practice stroke as he's not aiming at the correct green?

Also, what if player does what he did, then drops another ball down, a 3rd, a 4th, etc. Is he just playing the wrong ball now, so still the penalties only apply to the blob hole. At what point do we start saying this isn't on, we'll need to invoke Rule 1.2 as he is not playing in the spirit of the game. That's difficult if he genuinely believes he is doing nothing wrong and using the rules to his advantage.

If this incident occurred at our club, and I was on Committee and asked to make the decision, my only argument to say no penalty would he "majority of golfers on forum believe it's no penalty, and rulefan asked his contact at R&A". As rulefan is apparently someone with high standard in regard to the Rules, hopefully he'd agree that this would be a poor response if he were in the same position, easily challenged by the player calling the penalty. However, out of respect of rulefan and others, my approach would be different now. Before this thread, I'd have said the penalty applied. However, now that this thread has exploded into this, I'd refer the decision directly to the R&A.

I’m not sure what you are trying to achieve now - you are getting a little bit snidey towards posters who are qualified referees, you have been told of who they and they have given their rulings , they even went to the R&A to confirm the ruling yet you continue to dismiss it ? Why ? Is it for affect ? A player can’t just put a ball back in play on a hole - it’s an illegal drop and the penalty is DQ for the hole - simple