Rlburnside
Challenge Tour Pro
Yes I thought that after I posted but generally most low h/cs have a good grasp of the rules
potential problem with the new 'flag in' rule !
- Thread starter garyinderry
- Start date
Yes I thought that after I posted but generally most low h/cs have a good grasp of the rules
Orikoru
Tour Winner
But if it's truly more beneficial to keep the pin in, then more videos will be made showing people this, more people will realise it, and perhaps over the course of the next year we'll see a gradual sea-change in how players are having the pin. So to start with 20% of golfers are having it in. By June say, it's 50-50 and you get the slow play you speak of because of it going in and out all the time. But by the end of the year 80% of golfers are now putting with the pin in, so the faffing is less again - and it will be deemed a successful rule change. We can only wait and see how many people adopt this over time.
backwoodsman
Tour Winner
Been following this thread with interest. And am still puzzled as to where the supposed time saving is going to come from?
A player will take a given amount of time to make his putt - lining up, pre-shot routine, practice swing(s), whatever. This will be the same regardless of whether flag happens to be in or be out. So if flag is in for everyone, or is out for everyone, there is no time to be saved. There may be a marginal, few-second, time saving as regard the first person to arrive at the green but I am not convinced it will be anything more than a few seconds on some, but by no means all, holes during the round.. Generally, by the time the first person who wants, or needs (needed?) the flag out is ready to make the actual putt, the flag is already out
Only if the flag is going in, out in, out , on any particular hole, is there any time to be saved. And quite frankly, who plays golf like that? Certainly at my club, it's not like that - once the flag comes out, it generally tends to stay out for everyone. Likewise when I play with mates outside the club. And I really can't believe we are unique or unusual?
Ok yes, some people fart about and waste time - but that's them and not the process. They will still be farting about regardless of any rule change.
A player will take a given amount of time to make his putt - lining up, pre-shot routine, practice swing(s), whatever. This will be the same regardless of whether flag happens to be in or be out. So if flag is in for everyone, or is out for everyone, there is no time to be saved. There may be a marginal, few-second, time saving as regard the first person to arrive at the green but I am not convinced it will be anything more than a few seconds on some, but by no means all, holes during the round.. Generally, by the time the first person who wants, or needs (needed?) the flag out is ready to make the actual putt, the flag is already out
Only if the flag is going in, out in, out , on any particular hole, is there any time to be saved. And quite frankly, who plays golf like that? Certainly at my club, it's not like that - once the flag comes out, it generally tends to stay out for everyone. Likewise when I play with mates outside the club. And I really can't believe we are unique or unusual?
Ok yes, some people fart about and waste time - but that's them and not the process. They will still be farting about regardless of any rule change.
SteveJay
Head Pro
But think that scenario will now be quite common following the rule change. Those who believe the flag in is advantageous will want it replaced if others have already removed it. I will, and why shouldn't I? Otherwise I am relinquishing the choice to whoever is furtherest from the hole and putts first. However, I don't think this is really going to make a significant impact on slower play. If someone has removed the flag it takes seconds to replace it.
garyinderry
Ryder Cup Winner
Only seen a bit of the golf last night. Bryson and dustins caddy would have been doing the flag hokey pokey last night.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Trying to work out what happened for the poor putter to change from being one of the worst at the club, to having a great day putting (unless he was just having a good day)
Cant figure out how putting with flag in could be responsible for the improvement unless his problem was that he typically putts everything online but over-hits it by some margin so it jumps the hole
I guess it depends what makes him one of the worst putters because:
If he's online and short it doesn't matter if the flags in or not, he'll miss
If he's offline left or right (even if its dead weight) it doesn't matter if the flags in or not, he'll miss
So improvement due to flag being in could only come from hitting everything dead online (but that's not typically for a poor putter) and the flag-stick either stopped it dead & ball falls in the hole, or flagstick deflects its path preventing it rolling on too far which might usually cause a three putt for him
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
As already said this is a rules infringement anyway.
Rule 13.2 a
• The player must not try to gain an advantage by deliberately moving the flagstick to a position other than centred in the hole.
However if the flagstick is already pointing in an advantageous position you have the right to have it left there and if somebody centres it without your consent you may put back to where it was.
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D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Just watched the PGA Tour highlights this morning
Dechambau - my god the guy can’t get any slower - one putt him and his caddy took 3 mins - 3 mins !! A chip took 4 mins - his pace of play is shocking and at time you could see DJ getting a little annoyed
As for the flag in or out - saw him do it a few times but as the commentator said the ball would have gone in either way - it was funny watching DJ take it out then Dechambeu put in back in then DJ out again - like the Hokey Cokey and the group according to the commentary lost over a hole to the group in front.
They bring in all these pace of play rules and then you have him - he must have looked at his book about 5 times during one putt.
If they really want to speed up the game - start putting people like him on the clock from shot one
Dechambau - my god the guy can’t get any slower - one putt him and his caddy took 3 mins - 3 mins !! A chip took 4 mins - his pace of play is shocking and at time you could see DJ getting a little annoyed
As for the flag in or out - saw him do it a few times but as the commentator said the ball would have gone in either way - it was funny watching DJ take it out then Dechambeu put in back in then DJ out again - like the Hokey Cokey and the group according to the commentary lost over a hole to the group in front.
They bring in all these pace of play rules and then you have him - he must have looked at his book about 5 times during one putt.
If they really want to speed up the game - start putting people like him on the clock from shot one
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
as already said no
Stopping a fellow competitor from incurring a rules infringement is encouraged by the rules bodies.
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
One thing that can get in the way of time saving with ready golf and having the flag in is.....
Player A plays to the green first and makes the green but goes to the back
Player B goes in the bunker in front of the green.
As they walk up, player A keeps going to the back of the green while B sizes up his bunker shot
Manages to get it out reasonably close to the flag but on a direct line with A's putt.
Choices are that A putts with the ball there, risking a penalty, marks the ball himself ( but that involves a 25 yard round trip) or waits for B to finish raking and mark his ball.
A could putt but B is then raking on a direct sight line and could put A off....
Just one scenario but it's going to happen where someone is lining up a putt and others have to stop approaching the green to allow him tomato...
You take time with one hand and give it away with another.
I don't see flag in as a time saver, certainly not much of one anyway.
Player A plays to the green first and makes the green but goes to the back
Player B goes in the bunker in front of the green.
As they walk up, player A keeps going to the back of the green while B sizes up his bunker shot
Manages to get it out reasonably close to the flag but on a direct line with A's putt.
Choices are that A putts with the ball there, risking a penalty, marks the ball himself ( but that involves a 25 yard round trip) or waits for B to finish raking and mark his ball.
A could putt but B is then raking on a direct sight line and could put A off....
Just one scenario but it's going to happen where someone is lining up a putt and others have to stop approaching the green to allow him tomato...
You take time with one hand and give it away with another.
I don't see flag in as a time saver, certainly not much of one anyway.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
I think I follow but I'm not sure what time would be saved or lost compared to the same actions occurring based on the old rules
Time wont be saved on every green but that doesn't necessarily mean time is being lost either
(I assume the tomato is actually a red herring
)
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Autocorrect just sucks......putt out was what I typedIt's really just showing that sometimes you're going to gain a bit but on the next green you could lose a bit.
Some people are saying Flag in is going to drastically cut round times and I really don't think that's going to happen.
I totally Cucumber with you
It's really just showing that sometimes you're going to gain a bit but on the next green you could lose a bit.
Some people are saying Flag in is going to drastically cut round times and I really don't think that's going to happen.
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
How about this for a radical solution to slow play. Invitational events such as the Masters refuse to invite any slow players, maybe then they would speed up
Grant85
Head Pro
It's really just showing that sometimes you're going to gain a bit but on the next green you could lose a bit.
Some people are saying Flag in is going to drastically cut round times and I really don't think that's going to happen.
If everybody did it, and played ready golf it would have a fairly significant accumulation of time.
Reading the Spirit of Scotland by Alistair MacKenzie... he is talking about 2.5 hour rounds and guys would play twice or even three times round in a day. Carrying 6 clubs and just getting on with it.
What has changed to make a 4 hour round the norm and 2.5 hours seem almost impossible?
Answer, nothing drastic. Just a marginal accumulation of factors.
Everyone taking a few seconds longer with their set up
People wanting to finish up on every hole, even playing matchplay or stableford
Most people deliberating over which of their 14 clubs to hit for that second or two longer. When you have 6 clubs, there's generally not much of a decision
A lot of people bushnelling every shot
A lot of people using trolleys and having to take the long way round greens or slopes
People generally hitting the ball further and more aeriel, resulting in more searching for wayward shots
Everyone marking, cleaning and replacing their ball on the greens even if their ball isn't dirty and isn't in anyone's line
People probably slower and less active and not walking as briskly as folk 100 years ago
None of these things are massive, but over 18 holes of golf, there is a big accumulation.
jimbob.someroo
Journeyman Pro
We played on New Year's Day and found it helped with pace a couple of times. It's not taking 20 minutes out of a round, but better for everyone when one person is 40ft away but on the green and somebody is chipping / bunker. Allows the guy on the green to knock it up, and the guy off it to start lining up his putt when he gets to the green, as opposed to having to go tend the flag before starting that process. Also like the fact that you an just tap in without having to do the one handed / holding flag dance.
We posed the question "how many times a year do you hole a putt that was tended" and it's probably once or twice? So really, no real need for it in the first place. If anything, just creates more wear and tear around the hole which is particularly pertinent this time of year.
Think it's a bit nuts to start leaving it in closer to the hole but if people want to do that, crack on.
Not something that's going to drastically effect pace of play, but will make a couple of instances a round a bit more logical.
We posed the question "how many times a year do you hole a putt that was tended" and it's probably once or twice? So really, no real need for it in the first place. If anything, just creates more wear and tear around the hole which is particularly pertinent this time of year.
Think it's a bit nuts to start leaving it in closer to the hole but if people want to do that, crack on.
Not something that's going to drastically effect pace of play, but will make a couple of instances a round a bit more logical.
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Grant85
Head Pro
Of course it won't always be possible, but it usually will be.
and like I said, none of the factors on their own feel significant, but a couple of minutes saved a hole and suddenly you are taking over half an hour off a round without rushing or running round the course.
And of course, it only works if everyone picks up these habits.
I think too many people have the view that on a weekend match, everyone is going to take ages so what is the point in playing briskly as I'll just be standing on every tee for 2 or 3 minutes?
The mindset and culture has to change or it's only going to get worse and clubs need to encourage all members to adopt these habits.
HughJars
Q-School Graduate
Agreed. Can't agree with you Imurg, where it's not possible, nothing is actually lost, but all those times it is possible then you're gaining a few seconds here there and everywhere.
An eg. One of our clubs slowest, is a glove off/on merchant and low handicapper. He'll walk from green to tee with his glove in pocket, mark card, then put glove on, then get ready to take his honour. He costs a group 15 minutes per round on tee shots alone. He's also never ready to play from the fairway, so again time lost (and glove to go back on again).
When I'm playing with him I'll be right on the tee until he gets the message, and same with any other card marker, glove off/on merchants are not so prevalent.
SteveJay
Head Pro
Why is it nuts?
