A perfect trip up from the Chair, Sir Wyn Williams. If you pick up from 1hr 8mins you will see the Chair step in at around 1hr 14mins to remind Angela van den Bogerd of her evidence from the previous day…
Post Office - Horizon scandal
- Thread starter Jensen
- Start date
@Hobbit presumably the PO employees getting grilled are being primed by their own legal people. I say this as the 'I can't recall, I can't remember ' quote you mention is being used repeatedly. It's clearly pre-planed.
If I was one of the former poster masters/ mistresses I would be tempted to get t shirts made with that phrase on and turn up in it. Mess with their heads, get them to change the phrase or highlight its use.
If I was one of the former poster masters/ mistresses I would be tempted to get t shirts made with that phrase on and turn up in it. Mess with their heads, get them to change the phrase or highlight its use.
I’d be very surprised if the current and past PO employees aren’t being coached, and their legal fees paid. Bearing in mind it’s the PO that will be paying compensation, which no doubt they’ll try and limit, they need their employees and past employees to follow a script.
In terms of what being said, “I don’t recall,” and what we believe, it’s pretty obvious they’re lying. It’s the proving it that is the big issue.
Getting one of them to turn King’s evidence in some sort of plea deal could help but this isn’t Crown Court. There’s years to run before that point is reached.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Is this not libellous if they are not?
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
No, because he might be lying about their lying and when questioned about it he might not recall what he wrote. He's not under oath on here.
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Obviously…
And the thing that nails it are the phone recordings with Second Sight. They blow many of the witness statements, previously given, out of the water. Equally, the emails, which are clearly dated, also lay bare that the Horizon issues(bugs) were well known by those individuals, and it’s is only the GLO that forced the PO into a reversal on Horizon.
The “I don’t recall, I don’t remember,” is not a defence in law. If it was it would be a great defence for every criminal.
GreiginFife
Money List Winner
I think its dawning on many, if not all, of these people that they have been involved in, and in some cases played a pivotal role, in one of, if not THE, biggest criminal conspiracy in this country’s history.
As there wasn’t a session scheduled for yesterday I did a bit of catch up on previous sessions I hadn’t heard. Below is a very short piece, as per the title, about Disclosures and the timings of the Post Office’s document dumping etc from July last year. Needless to say it caused problems with witness scheduling and with the viewing of the documents prior to interviewing witnesses.
Some of you who have been following this thread, and/or the sessions themselves, will be aware that the PO have pulled the same stunt again immediately before this round of sessions. The request for the current tranche of documents was submitted 9 months ago but they couldn’t make the April 6th deadline… In light of the heightened profile the inquiry now has, following the ITV docu-drama, I find the PO’s actions mind bogglingly arrogant, or maybe they’re just completely incompetent.
Some of you who have been following this thread, and/or the sessions themselves, will be aware that the PO have pulled the same stunt again immediately before this round of sessions. The request for the current tranche of documents was submitted 9 months ago but they couldn’t make the April 6th deadline… In light of the heightened profile the inquiry now has, following the ITV docu-drama, I find the PO’s actions mind bogglingly arrogant, or maybe they’re just completely incompetent.
There were 2 employees interviewed today, both from a legal firm called Cartwright King who were acting for the Post Office.
The morning interviewee was Harry Bowyer, a barrister with CK. The witness statement from him was riddled with what appeared to be a subconscious bias against the subbies. He was pulled up on a number of occasions for what appeared to be a predetermined opinion of guilt evidenced by the language he used in many of his communications.
The afternoon interviewee was Martin Smith, a solicitor with CK. The last 15 mins of his session is positively explosive. Those of you following the inquiry may have seen John Scott, Head of Post Office security, giving evidence last week. A major point raised by Jason Beer KC with John Scott was an instruction issued by Scott that minutes were not to be taken of meetings in which Horizon issues were discussed, and any taken at future meetings minutes were to be shredded. The concern from the PO side being that the minutes were subject to Disclosure rules.
BOMBSHELL ALERT!!
The last 15 minutes of Martin Smith’s evidence was about the instruction not to take minutes and the shredding of minutes from PAST meetings. Smith was so concerned by the instruction, along with what looked like the PO’s intention to lay blame on Cartwright King for the instruction he recorded a phone call he had with the PO team. Wonder if he still has that recording???
Destroying evidence…?
The morning interviewee was Harry Bowyer, a barrister with CK. The witness statement from him was riddled with what appeared to be a subconscious bias against the subbies. He was pulled up on a number of occasions for what appeared to be a predetermined opinion of guilt evidenced by the language he used in many of his communications.
The afternoon interviewee was Martin Smith, a solicitor with CK. The last 15 mins of his session is positively explosive. Those of you following the inquiry may have seen John Scott, Head of Post Office security, giving evidence last week. A major point raised by Jason Beer KC with John Scott was an instruction issued by Scott that minutes were not to be taken of meetings in which Horizon issues were discussed, and any taken at future meetings minutes were to be shredded. The concern from the PO side being that the minutes were subject to Disclosure rules.
BOMBSHELL ALERT!!
The last 15 minutes of Martin Smith’s evidence was about the instruction not to take minutes and the shredding of minutes from PAST meetings. Smith was so concerned by the instruction, along with what looked like the PO’s intention to lay blame on Cartwright King for the instruction he recorded a phone call he had with the PO team. Wonder if he still has that recording???
Destroying evidence…?
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D-S
Well-known member
Thank you as ever for pointing this out. Fascinating last 15 minutes.
The BBC website did not give updates yesterday, very odd. Normally they give a text commentary, which is very well done. Strange one. Thankfully we have @Hobbit 
Beezerk
Money List Winner
The BBC website did not give updates yesterday, very odd. Normally they give a text commentary, which is very well done. Strange one. Thankfully we have @Hobbit
I've thought it a bit odd how they've tucked it away behind menus, you'd think such a huge story would dominate the BBC news website for a while.
The BBC website did not give updates yesterday, very odd. Normally they give a text commentary, which is very well done. Strange one. Thankfully we have @Hobbit
Maybe it was because it was right at the end of a long day, not that that has stopped the Beeb from reporting before. Bit surprising when it included such a bombshell…
They didn't report the findings live at all yesterday in terms of text commentary. You could follow the video of it live but they didn't provide the text updates. That is how I tend to follow through the day, dipping in and out at work, scroll back when you miss something. Maybe the journalists who do that role called in sick late on and they couldn't be replacedMaybe it was because it was right at the end of a long day, not that that has stopped the Beeb from reporting before. Bit surprising when it included such a bombshell…
D-S
Well-known member
Martin Smith is getting a real grilling now.
This morning’s session started with Chris Aujard, General Council to the Post Office, and Susan Crichton’s replacement. This was his second session at the inquiry, his first session being about a week ago. His performance in his first session was very assured and confident. However, today’s session was very shaky and far from assured. To be honest, he looked ill. Maybe that’s why he attended remotely… there was nothing of note in his evidence, just a continuation of nailing that the knowledge of issues was known far sooner than previously revealed, and the legality of how Disclosure was handled.
Martin Smith’s morning session went pretty much to form, based on yesterday’s evidence. Open replies and not dodging questions. However, as the evidence was dealt with chronologically it moved into a period where Smith had begun to act more directly with the prosecuting team. That was very much front and centre with advice on Disclosure, especially with things like the Helen Rose report which, if retrospectively applied, could make previous convictions unsound and open to appeal. Unfortunately, it would appear he became one of the ‘gang’ in terms of playing a little fast and loose with (almost) being obstructive with the defence teams. To be fair to the guy, he continued to be open with answers and even admitted he’d been very wrong in a course of action he proposed.
For those interested, it’s the last 30 mins that see Smith squirming a little as various bit of evidence are shown.
Springveldt
Well-known member
Reading this BBC report from today it's hard not to get angry.
There are a lot of people in this case who deserve to be jailed and it wasn't the sub postmasters.
False evidence by Post Office’s expert contradicted his own report
Expert suggested bug fix which would alter data without branch knowing, but told court that was impossible.
www.bbc.co.uk
There are a lot of people in this case who deserve to be jailed and it wasn't the sub postmasters.
The BBC news commentary is back up and running. A former senior lawyer for the PO is currently getting a spanking. Each time he claims to be unaware of something, the questioning barrister shows him the email trail showing how he received the information, repeatedly.
This is a quote just made, and typical of the mornings evidence:
Inquiry counsel Jason Beer KC returns to the Second Sight interim report, which found issues with the Horizon system. If you need reminding, it's the one that Singh said he could not recall seeing.
Beer highlights how the bottom of the page it is indicated that Singh himself printed the report.
"You know that you got this document, its contents and you know that you printed it," he says. Singh says no.
This is a quote just made, and typical of the mornings evidence:
Inquiry counsel Jason Beer KC returns to the Second Sight interim report, which found issues with the Horizon system. If you need reminding, it's the one that Singh said he could not recall seeing.
Beer highlights how the bottom of the page it is indicated that Singh himself printed the report.
"You know that you got this document, its contents and you know that you printed it," he says. Singh says no.
Springveldt
Well-known member
It really makes you think "how do these people even sleep at night?".
They knew the system was garbage, they knew they covered it up and they knew they sent innocent people to jail to continue with the cover up. Even now, they know they are lying in court but get away with it because they say "I can't recall". They must be complete sociopaths to live life like that and not feel guilt or stress over it.
GreiginFife
Money List Winner
I think anyone and everyone connected to the Post Office side of this are now in full-on panic mode. The outcome is becoming more obvious as days pass. People are going to swing for this, the only question now is... who will it be? And that, right there, is what is panicking people further down the pecking order IMO.
I can't recall, I don't remember, I didn't see that... as Hobbit pointed out, are not acceptable defences in any shape or form, merely devices to postpone the inevitable.
I can't recall, I don't remember, I didn't see that... as Hobbit pointed out, are not acceptable defences in any shape or form, merely devices to postpone the inevitable.
