chellie
Tour Winner
Yet more
Post Office - Horizon scandal
- Thread starter Jensen
- Start date
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
It’s getting a bit silly now!
Who’s been sitting on all this evidence?
Who’s been sitting on all this evidence?
My thoughts exactly. Who has had these recording, and why are they only just coming out? Just who records business calls like this? Who benefits from releasing them now?
My gut feel is it won’t be a PO director turning King’s evidence for a plea deal. But it might be someone from Second Sight - there seems to be a lot with a Second Sight participant… Second Sight trying to appear squeaky clean, showing that they raised the issues at the time…
Reemul
Head Pro
I think it is second sight who two weeks before releasing all the info got the boot but kept everything for a rainy day and it's now pooring down.
Bunkermagnet
Journeyman Pro
Jail all of them. Take their pensions away, sell their houses and give the lot to the PM and SPM'S
I think her ‘testimony’ at the Commons Select committee is absolutely disgraceful. She’d acknowledged not 6 weeks before in the phone call with Ron Warmington that the convictions might be unsafe. And as we’ve seen from other vids of taped phone calls, Paula Vennells was also made aware that the convictions were unsafe, and that the Horizon system was accessible remotely, before she attended that Commons Select committee hearing.
I find it very disappointing that with everything that has come out in the last few years that the Police aren’t further forward in their investigations. Are they waiting on the inquiry finishing? Let’s be honest here, by the time that’s done, including the publishing of the report, it could be 2026. And then by the time the Police conclude their investigations, put the file before the CPS, arrests and charges raised, court time booked and trials start it easily could be 2028.
Dando
Q-School Graduate
There’s an article in the law gazette where the PO we’re told not to write to their insurers about software issues as it would leave a paper trail and be bad PR
chellie
Tour Winner
I wonder if the Police are being told by the Government not to do anything.
The line that gets spun out, not just in this instance but others, is that the police will not act until the enquiry finishes in order not to prejudice the enquiry. Cobblers. As @Hobbit rightly points out, it just delays matters further, adds layers of cruelty. Get on with it.
Neilds
Assistant Pro
One of the things that winds me up is the constant use of the word compensation. For a lot of the people involved, it isn't compensation - it is a refund of their own money that was effectively stolen from them as they tried to get the books to balance. Pay this back immediately and then start with the compensation which is additional to the refund and should not be a 'joint' (lesser) payment
Swango1980
Well-known member
How does everything mix together legally though?
The enquiry is huge, and is trying to unearth many things not widely known, hence we seem to daily be posting more evidence that is now being heard. Once the enquiry is over, presumably the police can use all that information when making any charges? Whereas if the police just got on with things now, and did their own investigations and finalised charges, could they potentially regret this if the enquiry goes on to reveal more? Would they need to start over, at great expense?
Presumably the police are not completely idle in this? Would they not be doing some preliminary work, knowing what is to come, so that when they need to step things up they will be able to do so efficiently?
I think the key thing right now is to get the enquiry done and dusted as quickly as they can. It would be interesting what those that were directly impacted think. Sure, they need to get their money back AND be compensated for what they were put through asap. At same time, I suspect some will not want things rushed too much, as they'll want as much as possible revealed to the world. Is is not true that they are getting money back WHILST the enquiry goes on, or at least initial payments?
Should the police not be asking the same questions of these people that the enquiry is? Without the breaks of weeks in between? What is happening in the enquiry could be happening in a police station and then a court room.
Swango1980
Well-known member
I'm a lot more ignorant on this than most in here no doubt. On the little bits I've read, are we not in the middle of the police investigation anyway?
So, Inquiry or not, are the police not doing a lot of this type of work anyway, but in much more detail as it could lead to prosecutions, thus it would take longer anyway? Do we know what questions the police are asking people at interview, or does that simply remain internal for now? Can the police use what is coming out of the Inquiry, so that can actually help them a lot in their overall investigation?
No idea. Not a single person from management, investigators, legal team etc have been prosecuted so far though. That seems incredible based on the evidence so far heard.
I can only comment from the perspective of Coroner’s Inquests. It is standard procedure for a Coroner to adjourn an Inquest into a death until such time as any criminal investigation has concluded. If that investigation leads to a trial then, depending on whether the evidence has entered the public domain, the Coroner may decide that an Inquest is not required.
I am not familiar with how matters work with public inquiries, other than to say that I don’t doubt the framework is extremely complex, especially when the inquiry is on this scale. I’m fairly certain that an inquiry cannot establish criminal liability, but that the facts established can be used to pursue any criminal proceedings.
I would bet my mortgage on the fact that there is a police investigation underway. The suggestion that the government may have interfered to put a stop to any such investigation is, with respect, misguided at best. This is a matter of the most acute public interest and I would be absolutely staggered if, at the very least, a huge file of evidence is not presented for multiple charging decisions to be made.
But this process won’t be quick. Far from it. And none of it is likely to enter the public domain for months, maybe longer. I was involved in fairly complex road death investigations where several hundred documents were presented to reviewing lawyers, and the process before charging decisions were made and proceedings brought often took as long as eighteen months. Those investigations pale into insignificance compared to the Horizon scandal.
So, in short, when it comes to criminal proceedings I doubt you’ll hear anything any time soon.
But surely a key point here is that the police weren’t investigating from the outset? That’s absolutely central in how we got to where we are. Until it becomes clear at what point the police got involved in all this, it’s very difficult to judge their performance when it comes to efficiency and timeliness.
Who referred this matter to the police, what concerns or allegations were initially raised, and when? They are critical questions which need to be answered. One thing is for sure, it won’t have been PO management which first raised the flag to the police.
Where we are absolutely agreed is that this will not conclude, from a prosecution perspective, for years.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Following the prosecution of sub-postmasters, the next step would have been for them to Appeal. You had Alan Bates and his fight for justice, which would have unearthed much of the apparent cover-up. So, as the years passed, the actions of the PO would have been more and more difficult to ignore / cover up.
From what I read, the Director of Public Prosecutions requested a criminal investigation was started in January 2020, into potential offences of perjury and perverting the course of justice.
I guess before January 2020, the Post Office had managed to get away with what they were doing for years, hence the scale of what it has become now. Had the very first PostMaster who got prosecuted been able to defend themselves positively, then presumably the Post Office would have just got a slap on the wrist for a dodgy IT system, and had no choice but to address it. But, they managed to prosecute the sub postmaster, and continually do so, and the snowball just got bigger and bigger.
Robster59
Tour Rookie
I would tend to agree with this. Whilst it is undoubtedly frustrating, as much information as possible needs to come out and two groups trying to do the investigating may just blur things. The more that is pulled out from this enquiry, the more the police can use for their prosecutions.
As @Billysboots has said, I am sure there is a special section in the Police accumulating this evidence to go for prosecutions, but they also need as much information as they can get to make it watertight. Lawyers will look for any loophole and there will be a mountain of evidence to go through which, sadly, will take a lot of time.
I really hope they go full tilt at all those who tried to sweep this under the carpet for years and basically lied to government when asked about it. They need to have the full weight of the UK justice system brought down on them.
The hard part will be finding a neutral jury because I don't think there will be much sympathy for them.
What, IMO, should be happing immediately that all the money the postmasters lost through having to put their own personal fund in to cover the errors in the system should be paid back immediately. Surely that is auditable and can be done relatively quickly. Compensation should then be looked at as a separate issue. But there are many people out of pocket.
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Robster59
Tour Rookie
There are so many documents being leaked now. Who has had access to these and why were they not let out earlier? Perhaps it is because people felt they would be ignored, quashed or refuted. I am guessing that now is the right time for these to come out because the Post Office can't hide them anywhere.
Swango1980
Well-known member
I was wondering if a lot of the recordings and documents have simply always been there, gathering dust, and simply had not been found yet. Rather than people knowing the evidence exists, and just not revealing it until now.
Post Office staff have probably had millions of meetings, letters and emails going back and forth for the many years this had been going on. Even they probably won't remember the exact moment certain info was passed between them and others, and so much of this has probably been tough to find. Is every single phone call recorded? Good luck going through those
. Until now, where huge resources are now being used to investigate, due to public interest.So, the key will be how much they can find to indicate it was blatantly obvious PO staff where hiding facts that didn't help their cases. Seems like plenty of evidence has been found so far.
