Post Office - Horizon scandal

[Billysboots]

Said similar in post 6 way back.

The frustration is, and I’ve said this before, if the early allegations had been properly investigated by trained police fraud investigators, the issues with Horizon would most likely have been identified at the outset.

By employing in-house “investigators”, who were quite clearly investigators in name only, the PO allowed this scandal to develop unchecked in the early stages. Those tasked with investigating actually did no such thing - they merely built cases against anyone they suspected of wrongdoing, whilst completely ignoring viable lines of enquiry which would have established the true facts.

The word scandal doesn’t come close to doing this justice.

 

[GreiginFife]

The frustration is, and I’ve said this before, if the early allegations had been properly investigated by trained police fraud investigators, the issues with Horizon would most likely have been identified at the outset.

By employing in-house “investigators”, who were quite clearly investigators in name only, the PO allowed this scandal to develop unchecked in the early stages. Those tasked with investigating actually did no such thing - they merely built cases against anyone they suspected of wrongdoing, whilst completely ignoring viable lines of enquiry which would have established the true facts.

The word scandal doesn’t come close to doing this justice.

Its clear that there was never any intent from the post office to properly investigate the allegations that they made. The whole schitck was using substandard investigators that were being told what to do. I don’t believe that those investigators acted with any autonomy in this.

Senior figures in the PO knew the facts, chose to suppress those facts then and carried on persecuting innocent people.

Each and every person that acted in that suppression should be jailed and any bonuses paid to them during that period clawed back.

 

[Billysboots]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68663750

Another day, another document confirming just how astonishing this scandal has become.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I wonder how much of the £100 million in legal fees the PO ran up chasing the innocents is going to be refunded to the public purse that funded it.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I wonder how much of the £100 million in legal fees the PO ran up chasing the innocents is going to be refunded to the public purse that funded it.

None, I imagine, since it is lawyers' wages for the most part. Don't think there's a way to get that back.
There's a lot of wasted money in the economy right now.
Like the dividends paid out to shareholders of water companies who are effectively bankrupt and owing a cost-debt of clean-up and improvements in infrastructure.
Like the £60 million of public money that went to a broker for the supply of allegedly defective PPE.
Getting this money back to where it is needed or should be - quite impossible in many cases as it costs money to try and get it back.
Waste, waste and more waste. An awful lot of it happening in the private sector in recent years.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

None, I imagine, since it is lawyers' wages for the most part. Don't think there's a way to get that back.
There's a lot of wasted money in the economy right now.
Like the dividends paid out to shareholders of water companies who are effectively bankrupt and owing a cost-debt of clean-up and improvements in infrastructure.
Like the £60 million of public money that went to a broker for the supply of allegedly defective PPE.
Getting this money back to where it is needed or should be - quite impossible in many cases as it costs money to try and get it back.
Waste, waste and more waste. An awful lot of it happening n the private sector in recent years.

I get that, my arguement is it's tax payers money that was spent to chase and prosecute the innocents even though they (the PO) knew the fault lay in their software. So not only are they chasing innocent people, they are spending tax payers money to do so.

 

[clubchamp98]

I get that, my arguement is it's tax payers money that was spent to chase and prosecute the innocents even though they (the PO) knew the fault lay in their software. So not only are they chasing innocent people, they are spending tax payers money to do so.

Get it off Fujitsu or they don’t do buisness in the country again.

I would say “ it’s 60% their fault anyway” they knew remote access was possible.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Get it off Fujitsu or they don’t do buisness in the country again.

I would say “ it’s 60% their fault anyway” they knew remote access was possible.

Fully agree with that
But so far they seem to be playing a blinder and getting away with it

 

[Hobbit]

Today’s revelation recorded phone call from 2013 included Paula Vennells being told of the Fujitsu problems and also advised to reveal all rather than be caught out by a whistle blower later. I am shocked beyond words. The final nail confirms her involvement. Surely there’s got to be jail time for the level of perjury that saw others jailed, made bankrupt & even lead to suicide. It’s unbelievable!

 

[Billysboots]

Today’s revelation recorded phone call from 2013 included Paula Vennells being told of the Fujitsu problems and also advised to reveal all rather than be caught out by a whistle blower later. I am shocked beyond words. The final nail confirms her involvement. Surely there’s got to be jail time for the level of perjury that saw others jailed, made bankrupt & even lead to suicide. It’s unbelievable!

As I say, Bri, this is a widespread conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. It’s way, way bigger than perjury. It’s a conspiracy at the very highest level.

 

[Billysboots]

https://www.itv.com/news/2024-03-28/secret-tape-reveals-paula-vennells-was-told-about-faulty-horizon-software

 

[Hobbit]

The first 9 minutes are pretty much a repetition of the Post Office, all the way to the top, knew of the issues with the Fujitsu Horizon system BUT from 9 minutes… OMG!

They openly talk about “shutting the MP’s down…”

And it just continues to get more & more damning! Surely there’s no more to come?

 

[Billysboots]

The first 9 minutes are pretty much a repetition of the Post Office, all the way to the top, knew of the issues with the Fujitsu Horizon system BUT from 9 minutes… OMG!

They openly talk about “shutting the MP’s down…”

And it just continues to get more & more damning! Surely there’s no more to come?

I absolutely expect to hear that the PO instructed Fujitsu to develop a system which allowed third party access to sub postmaster’s accounts.

 

[Hobbit]

I absolutely expect to hear that the PO instructed Fujitsu to develop a system which allowed third party access to sub postmaster’s accounts.

I would expect that to be the case, and rightly so. I project managed a rollout of a huge software package. Hundreds of users in the U.K., my beat, and thousands globally. The development and rollout took 2 years+. We could access user accounts and make changes. However, the users knew we could, and in 99% of the cases were online watching us make the changes. My memory is a little hazy… I think they had to accept our access in real time. It was weird watching your cursor jumping around the screen and changes being made without you even touching the keyboard.

Critical system updates were prefaced with a notification going out to all users of a downtime event.

 

[clubchamp98]

The first 9 minutes are pretty much a repetition of the Post Office, all the way to the top, knew of the issues with the Fujitsu Horizon system BUT from 9 minutes… OMG!

They openly talk about “shutting the MP’s down…”

And it just continues to get more & more damning! Surely there’s no more to come?

Why has anyone been sitting on this evidence.

I really can’t get my head around that !

 

[Billysboots]

I would expect that to be the case, and rightly so. I project managed a rollout of a huge software package. Hundreds of users in the U.K., my beat, and thousands globally. The development and rollout took 2 years+. We could access user accounts and make changes. However, the users knew we could, and in 99% of the cases were online watching us make the changes. My memory is a little hazy… I think they had to accept our access in real time. It was weird watching your cursor jumping around the screen and changes being made without you even touching the keyboard.

Critical system updates were prefaced with a notification going out to all users of a downtime event.

Indeed, but my point is they said all along that they did not know accounts could be accessed remotely. When it emerges that they actually requested a system which allows that, from the outset, then that really will be the final nail in their coffin.

I really do think that the PO knew all about this from the outset.

 

[clubchamp98]

Indeed, but my point is they said all along that they did not know accounts could be accessed remotely. When it emerges that they actually requested a system which allows that, from the outset, then that really will be the final nail in their coffin.

I really do think that the PO knew all about this from the outset.

Yes which makes the fact they continued to prosecute and see people go to jail .
What was their motivation for that.

Vennels should be in the dock asap.

 

[Hobbit]

Indeed, but my point is they said all along that they did not know accounts could be accessed remotely. When it emerges that they actually requested a system which allows that, from the outset, then that really will be the final nail in their coffin.

I really do think that the PO knew all about this from the outset.

It’s common practice. The staff I had on the help desk needed to know what the users were doing in real time, when there was an issue, and occasionally needed to show the end user how it worked and make the relevant changes with the end user watching. In that respect, Fujitsu support with the end user failed dramatically. It almost operated like a bunch of geeky kids in their back bedroom with the curtains closed.

Quite how the PO wanted it to operate and whether Fujitsu offered a dynamic help desk we don’t yet know.

 

[cliveb]

There are two entirely separate issues about remote access.

1. Any large system like this MUST give the administrators the capability to access and amend data (while keeping an audit trail). You can't ever assume a system never has errors, and there has to be a way to correct things.

2. The fact that Fujitsu used that facility to try and correct faults under the covers while pretending there was nothing wrong is inexcusable.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

It’s common practice. The staff I had on the help desk needed to know what the users were doing in real time, when there was an issue, and occasionally needed to show the end user how it worked and make the relevant changes with the end user watching. In that respect, Fujitsu support with the end user failed dramatically. It almost operated like a bunch of geeky kids in their back bedroom with the curtains closed.

Quite how the PO wanted it to operate and whether Fujitsu offered a dynamic help desk we don’t yet know.

The wife worked at Fujitsu in HR at the time and there was a whole floor of the office block dedicated to the Post office account including 25/7 "support" or not as it should have been as the showings have indicated