Post Office - Horizon scandal

[RichA]

Should the police not be asking the same questions of these people that the enquiry is? Without the breaks of weeks in between? What is happening in the enquiry could be happening in a police station and then a court room.

A criminal prosecution isn't like a public inquiry. I've read elsewhere that there are "tens of millions" of documents, all of which the police will have to review before a prosecution can take place. If there's a scrap of evidence anywhere amongst those documents that provides Vennells & Co with a defence or mitigation, however tenuous, then the police and CPS have a duty to identify it. It's going to be running for years.

 

[Robster59]

A criminal prosecution isn't like a public inquiry. I've read elsewhere that there are "tens of millions" of documents, all of which the police will have to review before a prosecution can take place. If there's a scrap of evidence anywhere amongst those documents that provides Vennells & Co with a defence or mitigation, however tenuous, then the police and CPS have a duty to identify it. It's going to be running for years.

That sums it up. One is an enquiry where they ask uncomfortable questions, probe and interrogate their answers and even make accusations but they can't prosecute them. But it does make life very uncomfortable for them and this is just the start of a long, laborious process. If I were those in the Post Office and Fidelity who were actively involved in the cover up, I'd be feeling very worried right now.

 

[Hobbit]

Just floating an idea. It’s off the cuff and only partly formed.

The Hillborough Inquiry eventually got to the bottom of things. 97 people died because of Hillborough. How many officials were prosecuted?

I’d hoped this won’t be the case with the current inquiry but I think the top dogs will still dodge it.

 

[Billysboots]

Just floating an idea. It’s off the cuff and only partly formed.

The Hillborough Inquiry eventually got to the bottom of things. 97 people died because of Hillborough. How many officials were prosecuted?

I’d hoped this won’t be the case with the current inquiry but I think the top dogs will still dodge it.

I think Hillsborough and this inquiry are very different beasts.

Proving an individual criminally liable for the awful events at Hillsborough was always going to be very problematic because of the nature of events and the offences under consideration.

And whilst proving a conspiracy on the scale we are dealing with here is also likely to be very complicated, I think it far more likely that individuals can and will be held to account for what is a very clear case of perverting the course of justice. People have been dragged through the Courts when there appears to be a mountain of evidence which proves not only that they shouldn’t have been, but also that those from top to bottom in the PO chain knew that they shouldn’t have been, did nothing to stop it, and lied for years so that it could carry on.

 

[Billysboots]

For those of a mind for this sort of stuff, take a look at the following and you will see what a minefield this all is. But when you start to drill down and focus solely on the section relating to the offence of perverting the course of justice, you will perhaps start to see just what a pickle many involved in this scandal are in. I’ll bet not too many of them are sleeping well at the moment, and neither should they be.

Public Justice Offences incorporating the Charging Standard | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

 

[clubchamp98]

Just floating an idea. It’s off the cuff and only partly formed.

The Hillborough Inquiry eventually got to the bottom of things. 97 people died because of Hillborough. How many officials were prosecuted?

I’d hoped this won’t be the case with the current inquiry but I think the top dogs will still dodge it.

This is my thoughts.

But the government ministers will make sure someone in the PO will suffer to cover their backsides.
That’s how politicians work!

That wasn’t the case at Hillborough.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

As much as I want justice for the PM's and SPM's, it's blatantly obvious that the huge cover up that has been going on for years and the deliberate fogging of issues by the PO and others leads me to think this will just run and run and eventually be left to die away, with no punishments for those involved and very little financial recompense for those the PO have wrongly chase and punished.
Far too many people obviously knew about what was going on but chose to keep quiet, and thats the PO, Fujitsu, those brought in for various reasons and the Government.

 

[Hobbit]

After what appears to be a very sincere apology from Alan Cook, ex-PO boss, he was questioned by several solicitors representing prosecuted SPM’s. At first take I was impressed with the apology and subsequent discussion about what he didn’t know of from a shop floor level. A typical CEO who only dealt at a strategic level. However, as different emails and documents written by him were to reveal it would appear there is another side to him that doesn’t marry well with the sincerity displayed.

Maybe I’m being cynical but he’s either incompetent or just as dirty as his predecessors.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Anyone else notice that the male leaders seem to be lining up the females to take the blame.

None of the three main male 'leaders' seemed to know that the PO/RM could prosecute it's own employees.

Aye right, as they say.

 

[GreiginFife]

After what appears to be a very sincere apology from Alan Cook, ex-PO boss, he was questioned by several solicitors representing prosecuted SPM’s. At first take I was impressed with the apology and subsequent discussion about what he didn’t know of from a shop floor level. A typical CEO who only dealt at a strategic level. However, as different emails and document written by him were to reveal it would appear there is another side to him that doesn’t marry well with the sincere displayed.

Maybe I’m being cynical but he’s either incompetent or just as dirty as his predecessors.

Just yet another in a long line of people that, when confronted with their own words come away with the "it doesn't reflect my beliefs" mantra that seems to be the fashion these days.

He wrote that he thought PMs and SPMs had "their hands in the till" that accounted for the shortages. When challenged he claims he didn't really believe this... Then why did he write it... fumbles about with a word salad.

Whatever happened to people just owning their shitstorms and saying "you know what, I said it, I believed it at the time, I was wrong and own that"...?

 

[Hobbit]

Anyone else notice that the male leaders seem to be lining up the females to take the blame.

None of the three main male 'leaders' seemed to know that the PO/RM could prosecute it's own employees.

Aye right, as they say.

When you hear the Second Sight team talking to PO managers who then passed on the messages to Paula Vennells, I find it hard to believe that various PO staff didn’t pass on similar info to Alan Cook & Adam Crozier.

As you say, it just doesn’t ring true

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I've followed today's evidence at the enquiry. Was anyone in senior positions in the PO competent? I'm asking that question, knowing the answer really, as the defence for everyone so far seems to be 'yes I should have noticed', 'no I didn't notice'. Awful to a person.

 

[Hobbit]

I've followed today's evidence at the enquiry. Was anyone in senior positions in the PO competent? I'm asking that question, knowing the answer really, as the defence for everyone so far seems to be 'yes I should have noticed', 'no I didn't notice'. Awful to a person.

Incompetent or did know and are still lying. I’ll go with the latter. You and I both know that when you’re high up in an organisation you might not know who the supplier of the reams of paper are but you damn well know, to the nth degree, the detail of contentious issues.

 

[Hobbit]

I see the PO have pulled that age old trick of flooding an inquiry with 1,000’s of documents, emails & letters immediately before the inquiry was due to restart even though the request for disclosure went in last July. Nice to see Sir WYN say the inquiry will carry on as scheduled and that the witnesses will be recalled if the docs etc shows that there’s more questions to be asked.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

This was an extract from the BBC website about one exchange between one of the lawyers and the Chief Operating Officer for a long period:

He (lawyer) focuses a large part of his questioning on a report by IT expert Jason Coyne - which revealed Horizon was "clearly defective and which we covered earlier.

"I didn't read it, I have made that clear and it's a matter of some regret to me," Miller says - but Stein doesn't seem to be accepting that explanation.

The lawyer, who represents former sub-postmasters, accuses Miller of either lying through his teeth, or of complete incompetence - and it makes for a fiery exchange here in the inquiry room.

Miller: "I'm not lying through my teeth."

Stein: "So you're incompetent."

Miller: "If you wish to say that."

I note some members of the public, sitting just across from me, smirking as Stein's questions come to an end.

@Hobbit - covers our earlier discussion . They could use that approach for every one. Do you think the lawyers take it in turns to ask this question, share the pleasure?

 

[Hobbit]

The Post Office asked a number of independent organisations to commission investigations into the Horizon system over a period of years. In every case I’ve read the Post Office looked to dis those reports. It’s almost as though they were looking for an independent company to produce a report that supported them that they could wave above their head’s and say “I told you so…”

One such report was done by an IT expert Jason Coyne. The short vid below makes interesting viewing.

 

[harpo_72]

Just lock the ceo and the previous ceos up who were in place whilst this was going on. Then put the whole of their investigation branch in prison as well … and then let them appeal their innocence?
Simple problems get simple solutions.. oh and sell all their personal assets and family belongings to cover the shortfall.

What goes around comes around..

 

[clubchamp98]

The Post Office asked a number of independent organisations to commission investigations into the Horizon system over a period of years. In every case I’ve read the Post Office looked to dis those reports. It’s almost as though they were looking for an independent company to produce a report that supported them that they could wave above their head’s and say “I told you so…”

One such report was done by an IT expert Jason Coyne. The short vid below makes interesting viewing.

I would say “ he’s both incompetent and lying through his teeth”!

 

[clubchamp98]

Just lock the ceo and the previous ceos up who were in place whilst this was going on. Then put the whole of their investigation branch in prison as well … and then let them appeal their innocence?
Simple problems get simple solutions.. oh and sell all their personal assets and family belongings to cover the shortfall.

What goes around comes around..

If only this was possible!
Sadly it’s not.
Some mug will be put up as patsy so the others can get away with it.

 

[Hobbit]

If only this was possible!
Sadly it’s not.
Some mug will be put up as patsy so the others can get away with it.

I did think that Paula Vennells was getting lined up to take the hit but if recent hearings are anything to go by, I’m inclined to think she could have a fair bit of company.