Plane

[Voyager EMH]

There is absolutely nothing strange at all when three V-shapes are put together.
You are looking at three 2-dimensional shapes.



But what do you "want" to see?

What do you "want" the plane to do?

 

[Crow]

But the scenario is that the conveyor belt is travelling in the opposite direction, ie backwards in relation to the plane, so the plane is therefore not moving in relation to the ground, hence no airflow and no lift.

The scenario is that the conveyer belt moves at a speed to perfectly counteract the rotation of the wheels, ie the wheels don't turn.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

It's obviously yes, but I'm surprised how many try and argue otherwise.

No it isn’t “yes.”
What makes the plane lift off is that there has to be air travelling over the wing at such a speed as to generate “lift” ( to create the different pressures ,on top of and underneath ,the wing
If the plane is stationary in respect of the air, then it doesn’t matter how fast its wheel are rotating.

 

[Swango1980]

Can we all agree that everyone in here is intelligent enough to know how wings work, and how they generate lift? For those that say the plane will take off, including me, we are not saying the wings will start to flap like a bird and it will take off from a stationary position.

The plane will take off, as it will be moving forwards just as planes do when they take off. The treadmill isn't an air break

 

[Fade and Die]

Can we all agree that everyone in here is intelligent enough to know how wings work, and how they generate lift? For those that say the plane will take off, including me, we are not saying the wings will start to flap like a bird and it will take off from a stationary position.

The plane will take off, as it will be moving forwards just as planes do when they take off. The treadmill isn't an air break

But I’m assuming it’s fixed to the ground? So the relative speed of the plane to the earth, (and the atmosphere) is zero. Therefore as you have pointed out that everyone knows how a wing works you understand there can be no lift.

 

[RichA]

Isn't the sparrow then akin to a jet engine

A long as it's flying, yes.
If it's flapping it's wings like mad but somebody has glued it's feet to a fence then the kite will not fly.

 

[Swango1980]

But I’m assuming it’s fixed to the ground? So the relative speed of the plane to the earth, (and the atmosphere) is zero. Therefore as you have pointed out that everyone knows how a wing works you understand there can be no lift.

But next point to clarify is how a plane engine works

If it drove the axel on the wheels, then the speed would be zero relative to air.

But, I don't believe that is how a plane engine works. It uses the air to provide a thrust forwards. So, the treadmill isn't going to stop the plane going forwards

 

[Deleted member 36735]

The scenario is that the conveyer belt moves at a speed to perfectly counteract the rotation of the wheels, ie the wheels don't turn.

The counteraction means that the wheels are turning but the plane is not moving.

How could the wheels not be moving ?

 

[Fade and Die]

But next point to clarify is how a plane engine works

If it drove the axel on the wheels, then the speed would be zero relative to air.

But, I don't believe that is how a plane engine works. It uses the air to provide a thrust forwards. So, the treadmill isn't going to stop the plane going forwards

Is it the understanding of “Forward Motion” that is confusing you?

 

[Deleted member 35927]

Is it the understanding of “Forward Motion” that is confusing you?

Why won't there be forward motion ? Youre making the mistake of thinking the planes wheels matter

 

[Swinglowandslow]

But I’m assuming it’s fixed to the ground? So the relative speed of the plane to the earth, (and the atmosphere) is zero. Therefore as you have pointed out that everyone knows how a wing works you understand there can be no lift.

Exactly.
Looking at the image, how the hell is the whole thing( plane and treadmill) moving (at about 180knots) along the ground, I,e. Through the air.? It isn’t, is it?
Put it another way.
If you were stood 40 yds (for safety) facing the port wing tip, would the wing tip move off at speed to your left? If it doesn’t move, and I don’t see how from that image,( because the treadmill isn’t moving),then there is no lift.
If , however, the scenario is different from what I see the image to be, and the whole thing (treadmill )is on wheels and moving along the runway with the plane on it,then air is moving over the wings and lift is generated.

 

[Swango1980]

Is it the understanding of “Forward Motion” that is confusing you?

Defo not.

Let's say I'm on Rollerblades and kite surfing, wind dragging me 40mph forwards. If I'm on a treadmill that starts to go 40mph in opposite direction, I will still go forwards at 40mph. I won't suddenly grind to a halt

 

[Deleted member 36735]

Defo not.

Let's say I'm on Rollerblades and kite surfing, wind dragging me 40mph forwards. If I'm on a treadmill that starts to go 40mph in opposite direction, I will still go forwards at 40mph. I won't suddenly grind to a halt

In relation to the ground you will obviously not be moving.
In relation to the belt of the treadmill you will be going at 40mph.

 

[Fade and Die]

Defo not.

Let's say I'm on Rollerblades and kite surfing, wind dragging me 40mph forwards. If I'm on a treadmill that starts to go 40mph in opposite direction, I will still go forwards at 40mph. I won't suddenly grind to a halt

In relation to the ground you will be stationary… if I understand your explanation.

Like this fella…

 

[Voyager EMH]

Lets say a jet-plane going down a normal runway has reached 160mph. Another 400 yards and it will reach 185mph and take off.

But at that point, the rest of the runway in a conveyor belt running at 20mph towards the plane.

Does the conveyor belt slow the plane down a bit? Cause it to lose speed relative to the surrounding earth off the conveyor belt?
Will it now take longer (time and distance) for the plane to reach 185mph and take off?

Now the plane is on the belt, does the plane need to reach 205mph relative to the surrounding earth in order to take off, or 165mph, or is it still 185mph?

(Given: wheels go at a "whatever" speed and the pilot does not apply more or less power than in a normal take off scenario)

 

[Swango1980]

In relation to the ground you will be stationary… if I understand your explanation.

Like this fella…

Not like that fella. Where is the kite and the wind he is using to propel him?

He is using his legs and their relationship to the ground. Therefore, he is stationary, just like anyone jogging on a treadmill

 

[Swango1980]

Lets say a jet-plane going down a normal runway has reached 160mph. Another 400 yards and it will reach 185mph and take off.

But at that point, the rest of the runway in a conveyor belt running at 20mph towards the plane.

Does the conveyor belt slow the plane down a bit? Cause it to lose speed relative to the surrounding earth off the conveyor belt?
Will it now take longer (time and distance) for the plane to reach 185mph and take off?

Now the plane is on the belt, does the plane need to reach 205mph relative to the surrounding earth in order to take off, or 165mph, or is it still 185mph?

(Given: wheels go at a "whatever" speed and the pilot does not apply more or less power than in a normal take off scenario)

Nope.

But some people think that if that if the plane hits the conveyor belt as it is travelling at 185mph, and the conveyor belt is travelling 185mph in opposite direction, it will suddenly come to rest relative to surrounding air?

 

[Deleted member 36735]

Nope.

But some people think that if that if the plane hits the conveyor belt as it is travelling at 185mph, and the conveyor belt is travelling 185mph in opposite direction, it will suddenly come to rest relative to surrounding air?

"They" think that because obviously it will.

That you think otherwise as a functioning human being is mind-boggling.

 

[Swango1980]

In relation to the ground you will obviously not be moving.
In relation to the belt of the treadmill you will be going at 40mph.

So, the treadmill is providing a force that cancels out a 40mph wind?

And presumably if I speed the treadmill up to 80mph, I will actually be moving 40mph against the wind?

 

[Swango1980]

"They" think that because obviously it will.

That you think otherwise as a functioning human being is mind-boggling.