Perceived forgiveness.

[Mungoscorner]

I was going to suggest that the thread be closed after Snelly's post, because he has summed the argument up perfectly, but obviously he will have just added petrol to the fire by suggesting that most on here aren't as good as they think they are ( which is spot on ).

 

[tsped83]

Quite a long thread. Some interesting views.

My thoughts are that if you want players clubs / blades / etc. then fine. Buy them and enjoy them. As I have said before, blades are for people that like blades and clubs that give you a bit more help are for the rest.

My own view is that you're a bit daft if you have bladed irons and a handicap of more than about 3. There are no pictures on scorecards and a well struck forged iron is neither here nor there when you post your score. Still, each to their own and if a crunching shot from a forged club gets you excited then good for you. But it would be more sensible to just say that you play with them because you like them rather than justifying it with reasons that don't stack up. Golf is easier with Ping Zings than it is with a set of Maxfli Australian Blades. Anyone saying otherwise is frankly clueless. And the same argument applies to a lesser extent if you take less extreme examples. It is just common sense.

Secondly, all this about shaping shots being easier with forged irons needs a bit of plain speaking. First things first, most of the golfers on this forum (me included) are not good enough to hit draws, fades, high or low shots on command, despite what you might say. It doesn't matter what club is in your hand really. An exceptional player can hit these shots when required, irrespective of whether he has a Ping or Mizuno iron to hit the ball with. Average players can't. The level of workability between the two clubs is negligible for nearly all players.

Also, there is actually very little difference in term of how a good shot feels between various clubs. A nicely struck Mizuno feels lovely as I am sure nearly everyone knows. But it is the same with a Ping iron really. Out of the sweet spot feels smashing with any club.


Enjoy your forged irons with small heads. Enjoy the sound they make at impact and that feeling of joy when you properly middle one. But probably best to say you have them because you like them rather than because of what they do to your scores.


Golf is about the player, not the club (within reason before anyone pipes up with a hair splitting example).

Amen brother.

 

[garyinderry]

the debate is about so called players clubs vs game improvenent irons. not the differences between cast and forged clubs!

 

[jimbob.someroo]

Posted at the start of this and with a busy few days have just caught up with all the fun and festivities over the past few days on this topic.

Some really interesting points on both sides of the argument - for me, Snelly's post a few above this sums up everything really well, and I would have to agree pretty much entirely with what he's put. To break a horrendous taboo and retype what I'd put at the start my opinion is still 100% this ...

'The way I see it, the more I play, the better I'll get, the more I'll hit it out of the middle which makes the forgiveness less relevant. But, until then, I'm perfectly happy to get a bit of a helping hand from technology.'

 

[HughJars]

Just to turn this on its head a little.....

Is anything gained from a blade/players iron on a good, solid hit from the centre of a clubface over a more forgiving iron?

Just curious as I'm considering more forgiving irons........

Not a single thing, other than ego boost. Of course the guy with the Pings is sitting in the corner, with a pocket full of vouchers, his name on the honours board, and a lower handicap.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Not a single thing, other than ego boost. Of course the guy with the Pings is sitting in the corner, with a pocket full of vouchers, his name on the honours board, and a lower handicap.

Why do you insist that people who use non-GI clubs do it because of ego. Has it ever occurred to you that it might just be their preference?

 

[kid2]

Not a single thing, other than ego boost. Of course the guy with the Pings is sitting in the corner, with a pocket full of vouchers, his name on the honours board, and a lower handicap.

Why do you insist that people who use non-GI clubs do it because of ego. Has it ever occurred to you that it might just be their preference?

Im wondering the same thing myself Hawkeye......

Playing what i play im not trying to boost my Ego...... I play what i play because i like the look of them and i also hit them well......
As an aside.... I have vouchers in my pocket for the club shop.... My name is currently being put on the honours list in the form of a Scratch cup that i won with a score of Gross 75....... And iv dropped my handicap from 14.1 to 9.7 so far this season.......
Oh and i dont use Pings

 

[HughJars]

Why do you insist that people who use non-GI clubs do it because of ego. Has it ever occurred to you that it might just be their preference?

Well, I may be just surmising, you know, from Gareth's ego bag, but it's full of Titleist long clubs, bladed irons, and a Scotty.

Now if I was to be a cynical guy, or even a golfer of many years even, especially when looking at a guy who's just taken the game up, I might surmise that he's all the gear, no idea?

But then who am I to judge as you say, I have no idea wtf I am talking about, whereas Gareth has been playing for 3, yes THREE years!!!

 

[HughJars]

Why do you insist that people who use non-GI clubs do it because of ego. Has it ever occurred to you that it might just be their preference?

Are you stupid? I don't "insist" about "people".

I simply state that relative duffers like Gareth, who has a bag full of ego clubs, yet claims to be a budding Seve playing off 13, maybe isn't quite as good as he's making out, and perhaps needs to reign the ego in in favour of scoring a little bit lower?

Maybe, and I'm guessing here based on absolutely **** all personal experience you understand, and certainly not 10x the playing time he has, never mind other factors such as being a custom fitter, and seeing golfers over-reach on a regular basis, and more importantly seeing lifelong duffers get fitted - usually for a set of Pings - and suddenly knock a heap of shots off their handicap, no none of that, just as someone said early on, I'm purely here to make a fool of the guy.

Well, no I'm not, he does that well enough himself.

 

[Foxholer]

Are you stupid? I don't "insist" about "people".

I simply state that relative duffers like Gareth, who has a bag full of ego clubs, yet claims to be a budding Seve playing off 13, maybe isn't quite as good as he's making out, and perhaps needs to reign the ego in in favour of scoring a little bit lower?

Maybe, and I'm guessing here based on absolutely **** all personal experience you understand, and certainly not 10x the playing time he has, never mind other factors such as being a custom fitter, and seeing golfers over-reach on a regular basis, and more importantly seeing lifelong duffers get fitted - usually for a set of Pings - and suddenly knock a heap of shots off their handicap, no none of that, just as someone said early on, I'm purely here to make a fool of the guy.

Well, no I'm not, he does that well enough himself.

Back viewing this thread for the 1st time in awhile and nothing much has changed!

While I don't see the rather extreme post above lasting very long, I agree with a moderated (ha!) version of it - along the lines of Snelly's virtual repeat of what he posted significantly earlier.

Basically, play what you like best but, if you wish to score the best you can - and you are not (practicing as much as) a Professional, the more forgiving, the better!

Gareth, off 13 after 3 years, has made (a lot) better than average progress imo. I'm unconvinced whether GI clubs would have made a huge difference - maybe 1 or 2 shots? Likewise, Homer hasn't made the leap you state happens with the move from vanity/ego clubs to being well fitted with Ping G-series - and I doubt there's anyone on here who is more dedicated!

Kid has come down significantly this year - and with 'Players' clubs. Would he have come down more with GI ones? I doubt it - as the good/bad strike would have been masked, so the devoted practicer is probably hampered by using GI clubs!

Btw. The sweet spot is exactly that - a spot! It is the point on the face directly in line with the CofG of the head (in conjunction with the shaft). I don't believ those numbers on the TM clubs relate to all of the areas depicted. An allowance needs to be made for Marketing B/s - and TM seems the best at it!

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Well, I may be just surmising, you know, from Gareth's ego bag, but it's full of Titleist long clubs, bladed irons, and a Scotty.

Now if I was to be a cynical guy, or even a golfer of many years even, especially when looking at a guy who's just taken the game up, I might surmise that he's all the gear, no idea?

But then who am I to judge as you say, I have no idea wtf I am talking about, whereas Gareth has been playing for 3, yes THREE years!!!

Are you stupid? I don't "insist" about "people".

I simply state that relative duffers like Gareth, who has a bag full of ego clubs, yet claims to be a budding Seve playing off 13, maybe isn't quite as good as he's making out, and perhaps needs to reign the ego in in favour of scoring a little bit lower?

Maybe, and I'm guessing here based on absolutely **** all personal experience you understand, and certainly not 10x the playing time he has, never mind other factors such as being a custom fitter, and seeing golfers over-reach on a regular basis, and more importantly seeing lifelong duffers get fitted - usually for a set of Pings - and suddenly knock a heap of shots off their handicap, no none of that, just as someone said early on, I'm purely here to make a fool of the guy.

Well, no I'm not, he does that well enough himself.

Two replies, what do I do to deserve that

I didn't say you don't know what you're talking about, I have a lot of respect for your knowledge on this subject, in fact further up the thread I said I agreed with you in general. You have however mentioned ego several times and not just in response to Gareth and it comes accross as though you think everyone should be using GI clubs and those who don't are egotistical when in many cases, ego has nothing to do with it.

At the end of the day you are right in most cases but if Gareth or anyone else decides not to use GI clubs (after visiting one of your former peers) and is making progress they are happy with, who is anyone, knowledgeable on the subject or not, to tell him otherwise.

 

[garyinderry]

surely a life long hacker dropping a handful of shots due to his new pings is nothing to write home about. no amount of forgivness will give a golfer the long and short game to go low!

clubs dont make the player!

 

[hors limite]

I am sure that a "life long hacker" would be highly chuffed to drop a "handful of shots" whether with new pings or any other GI clubs. If they didn't write home about it they might stick a post on this forum to share the good news and hope that some of the "better" golfers might offer a pat on the back.
You never know but the rosy glow of success might even provide the impetus to take some lessons, work hard and practice and throw off the pejorative mantle of the life long hacker.

 

[tsped83]

Mr Hugh Jars,

Whilst I agree with a lot of what you're saying (Ping fan boy right here), your singling out of Gareth and raking home over the coals is a bit unnecessary no? If the guy chooses to play those clubs, which I agree may make things a little more difficult than some Ping shovels, who are we to care or persecute him for it? It is his choice after all.

Let's all have a hug

x x x x x

 

[guest100718]

I am sure that a "life long hacker" would be highly chuffed to drop a "handful of shots" whether with new pings or any other GI clubs. If they didn't write home about it they might stick a post on this forum to share the good news and hope that some of the "better" golfers might offer a pat on the back.
You never know but the rosy glow of success might even provide the impetus to take some lessons, work hard and practice and throw off the pejorative mantle of the life long hacker.

To get better you need to practise. id be willing to bet that changing clubs would make little to no difference at all.

 

[One Planer]

Well, I may be just surmising, you know, from Gareth's ego bag, but it's full of Titleist long clubs, bladed irons, and a Scotty.

Now if I was to be a cynical guy, or even a golfer of many years even, especially when looking at a guy who's just taken the game up, I might surmise that he's all the gear, no idea?

But then who am I to judge as you say, I have no idea wtf I am talking about, whereas Gareth has been playing for 3, yes THREE years!!!

Are you stupid? I don't "insist" about "people".

I simply state that relative duffers like Gareth, who has a bag full of ego clubs, yet claims to be a budding Seve playing off 13, maybe isn't quite as good as he's making out, and perhaps needs to reign the ego in in favour of scoring a little bit lower?

Maybe, and I'm guessing here based on absolutely **** all personal experience you understand, and certainly not 10x the playing time he has, never mind other factors such as being a custom fitter, and seeing golfers over-reach on a regular basis, and more importantly seeing lifelong duffers get fitted - usually for a set of Pings - and suddenly knock a heap of shots off their handicap, no none of that, just as someone said early on, I'm purely here to make a fool of the guy.

Well, no I'm not, he does that well enough himself.

:rofl: ..... Well Hugh, I'll grant you this, you've put a big smile on my face this morning

I'll answer your points as you've written them.

Firstly, Titleist Long clubs and a Scotty Cameron putter. Since moving to these, on recommendation of a qualified PGA professional and club fitter my overall carry has increased, while my dispresion has decreased and have a more stabe flight to my shots. Is this a bad thing?

I was also fitted for my Scotty Cameron, by a qualified PGA professional and club fitter for this club also. My putting has always been steady and I feel confident in my choice of putter.

Your "All the gear, no idea comment". Your opinion and rightly welcome to it.

As for the quip about how long I've been playing. Clearly you have your panties in a twist over this so I'll clarify. Every club in my bag, every single one has either been fitted by a qualified teaching professional and club fitter, or recommended by the afforementioned person(s). Perhaps these people don't know as much as they claim to then? Would that be a fair assumption in light of your comments?

Next - Bag full fo 'ego clubs'. Those ego clubs have dropped me 2 shots this year off my handicap. I've only missed buffer and received a 0.1 increase twice over the whole season which, also, has me in line for an annual reduction. Obviously these clubs are wrong for me, and I'm clearly incapable of using them effectively

As for this bit:

Maybe, and I'm guessing here based on absolutely **** all personal experience you understand, and certainly not 10x the playing time he has, never mind other factors such as being a custom fitter, and seeing golfers over-reach on a regular basis, and more importantly seeing lifelong duffers get fitted - usually for a set of Pings - and suddenly knock a heap of shots off their handicap

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

So, As soon as they come ot see you to get fitted for a set of Ping clubs they stop duffing, slicing, hooking, thinning, topping and knock, your words, a heap of shots off their handicap? I think it's you that has the ego issues. Either that or are seriously deluded into the actual effect of GI clubs for the handicap, club, golfer.

Oh, and as regards to this:

Not a single thing, other than ego boost. Of course the guy with the Pings is sitting in the corner, with a pocket full of vouchers, his name on the honours board, and a lower handicap.

Have a few bits and pieces to collect at this years awards evening. Oh, yes there are vouchers for lowest gross (77) in competition play and a little sliverware to go along with it for a few competition wins. While the club captian, who has a bag full of Ping has won nothing and his handicap is in reverse :thup:

You keep telling yourself I cant use my clubs :thup: You keep telling yourself I'm on an ego trip :thup: As I've said before, it's your opinionand you're welcome to it :thup:

The only thing further I will say, regarding the above, is my reducing handicap, seasons scoring performance and awards due to be picked up prove to me that I'm more than capable of using these clubs effectively to score well. If you want to make the sweeping generalization that all people above a handicap are incapable of playing 'players' irons, you go right ahead :thup:








Oh, and as for this:

I'm purely here to make a fool of the guy.

Well, no I'm not, he does that well enough himself.

If you want t go fishing, you're going to need better bait than that :thup:

 

[Foxholer]

:rofl: ..... Well Hugh, I'll grant you this, you've put a big smile on my face this morning

:rofl:

That reply made me laugh too! Well done on on this season'd results. :clap:

And before Hugh does make a further Hugh Jars of himself....

Just imgine what you could have achieved with a set of GI clubs!

 

[One Planer]

:rofl:

That reply made me laugh too! Well done on on this season'd results. :clap:

And before Hugh does make a further Hugh Jars of himself....

Just imgine what you could have achieved with a set of GI clubs!

The best of it is Foxy, I agree with him as far as GI irons having a place in the market.

I would never dream of saying every player, regardless of handicap, should play blades.

What I've said, all they way through the thread, if you feel/want extra forgiveness from your irons you have all the choice in the world when it comes to GI irons. If you feel you dont want the help and would prefer to feel a bad shot when you hit one, prefer a smaller head with less off-set, you also have options.

It's all about choice.

I've made mine and I'm happy with it :thup:

With reagrds to how I could have done playing more forgiving irons, not much would be my honest answer.

A duffed pitch is still duffed no matter if it's a GI or blade club being used.

A pull, is still a pull, but my only saving grace would be that a mis-hit pull with a player irons wont fly as far into the clag :smirk:

 

[Foxholer]

The best of it is Foxy, I agree with him as far as GI irons having a place in the market. ness a
.
.

With reagrds to how I could have done playing more forgiving irons, not much would be my honest answer.

A duffed pitch is still duffed no matter if it's a GI or blade club being used.

A pull, is still a pull, but my only saving grace would be that a mis-hit pull with a player irons wont fly as far into the clag :smirk:

My last comment had more than a hint of sarcasm - which you may or may not have realised - we really do need a 'sarcastic' Smiley! Can you organise one?

I'd already suggested 'not much' too as the forgiving nature of GI clubs also disguises the misses.

And Hugh's hypothesis fails the Homer test as well.

There's a degree of logic about starting to play with GIs, learning to hit with blades and playing with what you like the look/feel of.

 

[Snelly]

While I don't see the rather extreme post above lasting very long, I agree with a moderated (ha!) version of it - along the lines of Snelly's virtual repeat of what he posted significantly earlier.

No apologies for repeating. Some people need telling a few times....