Perceived forgiveness.

[One Planer]

Seeig as i started all this Malarky i might as well keep going....
I still stand by what i said and Gareth on this...... I can also relate to what HJ is saying and i mean no disrespect to his trade either......

So if i take yesterday as an example.....
My Irons in HJ's words are "Hardly Game Improvement"...... Yesterday i shot 79 gross....... The only bad shot i hit with my irons over the 18 holes came on the first with my 4 iron...... I caught the ball off the toe..... It only went 140mtrs before the rough had slowed it down...... I dropped 8 shots to par broken down as follows.....

1.The 1st....Poor tee shot with my 4 iron.... Made bogie. 1
2. 3 putted our par 3 2nd after hitting the middle of the green.....2
3. Dropped 1 on the 3rd to a pulled tee shot with a 3 wood.3
4. 3 putted the 4th par 3 after hitting a front bunker5
5. A pushed drive on the 7th put me under a tree where i had to chip out and had 190mtrs to the middle of the green.. Milled a hybrid and hit the back of the green pin high.... chip and 2 putts.... double bogie.7
6. A plugged ball at the side of the 11th green i had to chunk out.. 2 putts... bogie8
7. A hooked drive into cabbage, I had to reload and ended up with a double bogie.....10
8. A Birdie on 16 and 17 got me 2 back..8

Shots dropped by Irons that i shouldnt be using 1.....

On no account yesterday did i think i need more forgiving clubs......

And my Irons.... Wilsonstaff FG Tours..... Standard length,loft and lie straight off the shelf with DG S300 shafts....

I went for a quick 9 holes myself last night after work. I'd post a picture of the 4 iron I hit into a par 3, but modesty forbids

In the clubhouse after I brought this very subject up with a few of the chaps in there. One of them, the club chairman, made a very interesting point.

He argued that people these days (... Yes, he grew up playing blades and persimmon woods) look too much into what they can't do rather than what they actually can.

Things like:

"I Can't hit a 4 iron"

or

"I can't hit a fairway wood off the deck".

"Back then", he says, "You didn't have a choice. You learned to play with the clubs you had. You didn't really have a choice. There were no hybrids, no uber forgiving woods, just butter knives and lumps of wood on the end of a stick."



I think he makes a fair point myself.

 

[One Planer]

To add to this thread. I started a similar post, in July last year , asking if we (..... Manufacturers) were making this game "Too easy"

http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?42586-Are-we-in-danger&highlight=gareth+danger

Some interesting thoughts, that are relivent to this thread :thup:

 

[patricks148]

I went for a quick 9 holes myself last night after work. I'd post a picture of the 4 iron I hit into a par 3, but modesty forbids

In the clubhouse after I brought this very subject up with a few of the chaps in there. One of them, the club chairman, made a very interesting point.

He argued that people these days (... Yes, he grew up playing blades and persimmon woods) look too much into what they can't do rather than what they actually can.

Things like:

"I Can't hit a 4 iron"

or

"I can't hit a fairway wood off the deck".

"Back then", he says, "You didn't have a choice. You learned to play with the clubs you had. You didn't really have a choice. There were no hybrids, no uber forgiving woods, just butter knives and lumps of wood on the end of a stick."



I think he makes a fair point myself.

True, as we have all these things to make the game easier, why not use them????

I like the feel of hitting a crisp bladed 3 iron as much as the next guy but... times change..

Bring on the easy to hit clubs

PS does you Chairman still have a black and white Valve tele?

 

[bluewolf]

I think that there's some spectacular point missing here. Surely the help is not for when you're playing well, but for when your timing isn't quite right. I played some of my best golf with a set of MP32's. I also played some of my worst. GI irons just help to even out the peaks and troughs for me, with maybe a small improvement in the average. Detailing a great round is all good, but without the context of the bad rounds as well, then it's relatively meaningless.

FWIW, people can and should use whatever the feel best using. My irons are without doubt, too good for my current swing. 2 injury prone years has caused that. So I'm buying a set of lighter GI irons to help me regain my swing and confidence. Then I'll go back to my Cobra's.

 

[HughJars]

On the back of this thread, I asked myself the question over the weekend "Would a set of GI clubs help me get lower?"

My honest answer, No.

Would they make my mis-hits fly straighter? Yep, they would.

Would they make my mis-hits fly further? Yep, no doubt

Would I still have the same swing flawes, albeit masked by the tech of the club....... Yep.


I know golf is a game of how many, not how. I guess I just enjoy a challange

So every question you asked yourself came back with a reply that GI clubs would better your game, so your conclusion was, they would not better your game?

 

[HughJars]

I think that there's some spectacular point missing here.

Wilful point missing I think blue. It's been explained, even down to where I re-posted the pic of Gareth's wide dispersion on the club face, but that's ok apparently cos most are more or less out of the sweet spot

 

[One Planer]

Wilful point missing I think blue. It's been explained, even down to where I re-posted the pic of Gareth's wide dispersion on the club face, but that's ok apparently cos most are more or less out of the sweet spot

Are you seriously telling me, that in the picture you reference I miss the middle more than I hit it?

Are you sure you're looking at the right picture?

 

[One Planer]

So every question you asked yourself came back with a reply that GI clubs would better your game, so your conclusion was, they would not better your game?

GI clubs have a place in golf, I'm not disagreeing with that. I have no issue with GI clubs, nor players who use them.

If anything, in reference to the origin OP, GI clubs massage your ego more than playing a 'better players' club.

And here's why.

You can hit the ball anywhere, pretty much, on the face and the ball will fly straight. You can strike a GI iron poorly and still get a good result, not too shabby. It will still go roughly where aimed and, chances are not lose a great deal of distance. Great!

So the guy who strikes it high or low on the face. Out of the heel or toe gets it round in a reasonable number.

Did they? Or was it the technology? Would they have shot the same score with 'harder to hit' clubs?

Here's the counter argument.

Is this, the above, not massaging a players ego more with regards to ability than someone hitting 'players' irons who can't find the middle?

I know that golf is not a game of how, but how many. Fine I accept that. If they gets you around the course in a number you find acceptable great.

What happens when they don't? Do you buy more forgiving irons? Do you move from G15 irons to K15 (Other brands are available)?

Has the average handicap dropped since Ping launched the cavity back? Has all the modern technology from TM, Ping, Callaway, Mizuno, Cleveland help to lower the handicap of the average golfer? No.

The average handicap has stayed, pretty much, the same as it was when clubs were a lot harder to hit. Surely this can't be right can it?

Here's a typical example.

I have a friend who plays off 28. He's been playing 5 years and has never played to 28. He plays SGI irons and Ping G series woods. Surely,by your logic, they should be helping him to reach his goal?

Of course they won't.

Anyone with an ounce of sense knows you can't buy a 'golf swing' from the American Golf (Other stores are available). You have to work at it, play a lot, practice often, have lessons if you feel the need. That's how you learn to hit the ball effectively.

If you want to advocate massaging an ego by shooting a number by hitting the ball anywhere but out of the middle, you go right ahead :thup:

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I think that there's some spectacular point missing here. Surely the help is not for when you're playing well, but for when your timing isn't quite right. I played some of my best golf with a set of MP32's. I also played some of my worst. GI irons just help to even out the peaks and troughs for me, with maybe a small improvement in the average. Detailing a great round is all good, but without the context of the bad rounds as well, then it's relatively meaningless.

FWIW, people can and should use whatever the feel best using. My irons are without doubt, too good for my current swing. 2 injury prone years has caused that. So I'm buying a set of lighter GI irons to help me regain my swing and confidence. Then I'll go back to my Cobra's.

I don't think anyone is doubting the benefit of GI irons. Some of us are just happy to accept the lack of forgiveness in favour of something more pleasing on the eye. It's not an ego thing, it's just a personal preference, which I believe we are allowed.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

GI clubs have a place in golf, I'm not disagreeing with that. I have no issue with GI clubs, nor players who use them.

If anything, in reference to the origin OP, GI clubs massage your ego more than playing a 'better players' club.

And here's why.

You can hit the ball anywhere, pretty much, on the face and the ball will fly straight. You can strike a GI iron poorly and still get a good result, not too shabby. It will still go roughly where aimed and, chances are not lose a great deal of distance. Great!

So the guy who strikes it high or low on the face. Out of the heel or toe gets it round in a reasonable number.

Did they? Or was it the technology? Would they have shot the same score with 'harder to hit' clubs?

Here's the counter argument.

Is this, the above, not massaging a players ego more with regards to ability than someone hitting 'players' irons who can't find the middle?

I know that golf is not a game of how, but how many. Fine I accept that. If they gets you around the course in a number you find acceptable great.

What happens when they don't? Do you buy more forgiving irons? Do you move from G15 irons to K15 (Other brands are available)?

Has the average handicap dropped since Ping launched the cavity back? Has all the modern technology from TM, Ping, Callaway, Mizuno, Cleveland help to lower the handicap of the average golfer? No.

The average handicap has stayed, pretty much, the same as it was when clubs were a lot harder to hit. Surely this can't be right can it?

Here's a typical example.

I have a friend who plays off 28. He's been playing 5 years and has never played to 28. He plays SGI irons and Ping G series woods. Surely,by your logic, they should be helping him to reach his goal?

Of course they won't.

Anyone with an ounce of sense knows you can't buy a 'golf swing' from the American Golf (Other stores are available). You have to work at it, play a lot, practice often, have lessons if you feel the need. That's how you learn to hit the ball effectively.

If you want to advocate massaging an ego by shooting a number by hitting the ball anywhere but out of the middle, you go right ahead :thup:

I'm starting to fall of the fence on your side Gareth :thup:

 

[bluewolf]

I don't think anyone is doubting the benefit of GI irons. Some of us are just happy to accept the lack of forgiveness in favour of something more pleasing on the eye. It's not an ego thing, it's just a personal preference, which I believe we are allowed.

Did you mean to quote my post? Not really sure how your reply has anything to do with my post. As I stated, people are free to use whatever they like the look of. I do.

 

[chellie]

Ok, so how do I know if my irons are GI's or not.

 

[Qwerty]

As I said earlier in the thread, I tried Mp32s for a year and they are without doubt a great iron,but for me I get the most enjoyment and sense of achievement out of posting a low score. After using both I know I've a much better chance of doing this with my current Mp53s over the 32s.

I play a moorland course, sometimes windy and with lots of awkward lies, It's not always easy to find the middle of the club.

Of course we're all entitled to have whatever clubs we like in the bag, but if Theres a driver or set of irons out there that will help me score lower then I'll use them. I'll happily let a bit of forgiveness mask my imperfections if the outcome is a lower score.

I think practice time is also an issue here... I'm off 9, a reasonable ball striker.... If I was on the range 4 nights a week I could maybe handle the 32s. Pulling them straight out of the bag on a weekend... I've got no chance.

 

[ger147]

One point on GI irons - if you hit a GI iron out of the toe or the heel the ball does NOT go straight.

The sweet spot is larger and therefore easier to hit but it does NOT make every ball fly straight no matter where on the face you strike the ball.

 

[One Planer]

As I said earlier in the thread, I tried Mp32s for a year and they are without doubt a great iron,but for me I get the most enjoyment and sense of achievement out of posting a low score. After using both I know I've a much better chance of doing this with my current Mp53s over the 32s.

Of course we're all entitled to have whatever clubs we like in the bag, but if Theres a driver or set of irons out there that will help me score lower I'll use them.

I think practice time is also an issue here... I'm off 9, a reasonable ball striker.... If I was on the range 4 nights a week I could maybe handle the 32s. Pulling them straight out of the bag on a weekend... I've got no chance.

Some good points here.

Things is though, while the 53's are no doubt more forgiving than the 32's, they're not exactly the most forgiving cavity back out there.

I can't remember who it was (on here) who moved from a set of MP53's to a set of JPX irons.

What I take from this is forgiveness is an entirely personal thing. You 'feel' you need more or less on a personal level. You know how often you miss the middle, only you know how well you strike a ball.

 

[kid2]

There is no such thing as a club that will help you lower your scores.... The only way that will happen boils down to ability.... Would a game improvement club have made my score better last weekend.... I seriously doubt it.... It may have given me an extra 10 mtrs on my opening tee shot with my 4 iron had it been a Ping G20 or Callaway or TM..... What would that have given me... A 6 iron instead of a 5 for my approach shot...

I'm with Gareth in that the average handicap has not changed since the introduction of the first Ping cavity back.... Despite all the technology that's about...

If you use a club for long enough you'll eventually learn how to hit it properly....

 

[Qwerty]

What I take from this is forgiveness is an entirely personal thing. You 'feel' you need more or less on a personal level. You know how often you miss the middle, only you know how well you strike a ball.

I find a that a good score is all about momentum Gareth, If my ball striking/timing wasn't quite there early in the round with some 32s in the bag I'd probably never get going it would also knock the confidence a little.

If I turn up on a bad day with that bit of forgiveness the 53s offer I feel I've got a better chance of getting things going, gaining momentum and maybe scraping buffer or posting something half decent.

like you say, on a personal level I do feel I need the forgiveness the 53s offer, there's a lot of awkward lies on my course and its not always easy finding the middle of the club.

With bunkers left and right at the front of every green sometimes that bit of forgiveness from 160 yards is the difference between birdie and bogey.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Now using GI clubs but hit my irons like an idiot at West Hill. No amount of forgiveness can help if you don't put a good swing on it. Kept slicing which is unusual for me. I did get some forgiveness and arguably more than I would have done with my old TM tour preferred's but it still comes down to putting a good strike on every shot.

 

[One Planer]

One point on GI irons - if you hit a GI iron out of the toe or the heel the ball does NOT go straight.

The sweet spot is larger and therefore easier to hit but it does NOT make every ball fly straight no matter where on the face you strike the ball.

I accept straight every time may be exaggerated, agreed, but look at the COR numbers outside the sweet spot. As near as makes no difference to the actual sweet spot!!

 

[ger147]

I accept straight every time may be exaggerated, agreed, but look at the COR numbers outside the sweet spot. As near as makes no difference to the actual sweet spot!!

That is about distance, NOT direction.