Penalty?

[Backache]

So the police can use their discretion when the signs aren't clear

They can use their discretion when the signs are clear , the nature of law in this country is that discretion can be used in the legal process. That is not the case in the Rules of golf where penalties are generally defined and mandatory.
The practicalities are that in events played under the rules of golf there is a duty incumbent on the commitee to suitably mark the course. If you are pitching up at a club to play with friends and the course is not well marked you are entirely free to ignore the rules of golf for your own private competitions.

 

[robinthehood]

You haven't answered the question.

Becaue it has no relevance to the game of golf. It's absurd defcon 1 whatiferry

 

[rulefan]

Imagine you're driving your car at 33mph in a 40 mph zone so obeying the speed limit and you're pulled by the police for speeding.
The police tell you the speed limit is 30 but the 30 sign has been obscured by overgrown foliage, should the police use his/her discretion and give you a warning or should you be done?

Which Rule of Golf does this relate to? I can't find one in the book.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

You are getting to far hung up on the fact that the rule probably doesn't apply because you think the player hasn't actually started the hole, as it's the wrong hole. This is almost an absurd interpretation of this rule, when in plain English it then goes on to clarify that the penalty also applies if you tee off the WRONG HOLE. When, in your interpretation, could a player be penalised from playing off the wrong hole as per the rule? I can't imagine a player would ever intentionally play from the wrong hole after all.

Yes, Swango1980, you have caught my train of thought on this😀
I know I am a lone voice in the wilderness, and I agree that , if going by the letter of the rule I am right, that it is absurd in that when could a player be penalised from playing off the wrong hole.
To my mind, what is written is intended to penalise the chap playing the wrong hole, but it doesn't say that. What it says is
"from a wrong set of tee markers for a different teeing location on the same hole or a different hole"
This sentence is talking about where you have a hole with say three teeing areas and you use the wrong teeing area, or the teeing area of another hole but where you could still hit to the fairway of the hole you are playing.E.g
You are playing hole 6 but you ( mistakenly)hit off from nearby teeing area of hole 5 on to the fairway of hole 6.
The OP was talking about a possible scenario,( certainly possible on my course) where what should happen is , you finish a hole then walk not a few yards past two teeing areas for two other holes before you get to the next hole you should be playing, but you don't do that, instead, in error, you find your way to a completely different hole and play that one instead.On my course I have seen many strangers /society players do that.

I know what you chaps are saying and why you consider it covers someone playing the wrong hole, but I don't think the rule as written would withstand scrutiny by a team of QCs😁
However, rest assured, if I play the wrong hole in future, I'll take the penalty as you all see it. I'm not this pedantic on the golf course😀
Cheers

 

[Swinglowandslow]

So the police can use their discretion when the signs aren't clear

They can use their discretion when the signs are clear, as well.

In fact, if the signage lawfully required to define a speed limit area is not properly situated, it can be argued that the offence has not been committed.
When any offence is contested in court, the defence may require such things as speed limit areas to be proved as such, if they think there is something amiss there.And if there is, their client would be not guilty, even if he was doing , say, 40 mph in an alleged 30 mph speed limit.
However, most times the road is accepted as having the speed limit alleged and the court "takes judicial note"

 

[Imurg]

I think it does cover it simply by defining the teeing ground as the rectangle of the line between the two tee markers extending backwards for up to two club lengths.
If you tee up anywhere, and that is a definitely defined anywhere, then you're subject to a penalty.
The rules of golf don't care where you are of you're outside the rectangle. The fact that you're outside is all the rules care about, not why or how far.
It's as unambiguous as it gets. There's no middle ground or interpretation. You're either in or out.

 

[rulefan]

If you are starting a hole but are use a teeing location which is not a (the) teeing area, you are in breach of the rule.

 

[Swango1980]

Yes, Swango1980, you have caught my train of thought on this😀
I know I am a lone voice in the wilderness, and I agree that , if going by the letter of the rule I am right, that it is absurd in that when could a player be penalised from playing off the wrong hole.
To my mind, what is written is intended to penalise the chap playing the wrong hole, but it doesn't say that. What it says is
"from a wrong set of tee markers for a different teeing location on the same hole or a different hole"
This sentence is talking about where you have a hole with say three teeing areas and you use the wrong teeing area, or the teeing area of another hole but where you could still hit to the fairway of the hole you are playing.E.g
You are playing hole 6 but you ( mistakenly)hit off from nearby teeing area of hole 5 on to the fairway of hole 6.
The OP was talking about a possible scenario,( certainly possible on my course) where what should happen is , you finish a hole then walk not a few yards past two teeing areas for two other holes before you get to the next hole you should be playing, but you don't do that, instead, in error, you find your way to a completely different hole and play that one instead.On my course I have seen many strangers /society players do that.

I know what you chaps are saying and why you consider it covers someone playing the wrong hole, but I don't think the rule as written would withstand scrutiny by a team of QCs😁
However, rest assured, if I play the wrong hole in future, I'll take the penalty as you all see it. I'm not this pedantic on the golf course😀
Cheers

So, your possible interpretation is that, if you play the completely wrong hole, you may be OK. But, if you tee off from the wrong hole, but just so happen to hit your ball towards the correct fairway, then you are not OK and would be penalised (as, in your mind, you have started the hole)? That would only ever be a reasonable interpretation if the R&A and clearly defined "starting a hole" as hitting your ball towards the correct fairway. They do nothing of a sort. And, even if your interpretation was correct, a golfer being penalised for this could argue that they are just being as unfairly treated as the golfer that teed off from completely the wrong hole to the wrong fairway, which is what added legs to this thread in the first place. After all, they still didn't intend to tee off from the wrong place.

 

[Colin L]

Yes, Swango1980, you have caught my train of thought on this😀
I know I am a lone voice in the wilderness .......
Cheers

I'm not often as blunt as this in this forum, but given all the explanations you have been offered with references to and quotations from the Rules, have you considered that you might just be a lone voice in the wilderness because you are plain wrong?

 

[bobmac]

Which Rule of Golf does this relate to? I can't find one in the book.

The driver has unknowingly broken the speed limit as the 30mph sign wasn't clear.
The law decides that despite the fact that he has broken the law because the signs weren't clear he should not be punished.

The guy who unknowingly tees off from the wrong teeing ground because the sign wasn't clear is punished.
It is my opinion if visitors are ''always getting it wrong'', then the club should not punish the golfer but should improve the signs.

 

[Colin L]

If a player breaches a rule, the club has no authority to waive the penalty. But it can and should, as you say, take action to prevent similar breaches in the future. Whatever discretion is afforded to the police, the Fiscal or the Courts in criminal matters isn't analagous.

 

[bobmac]

If a player breaches a rule, the club has no authority to waive the penalty.

Do you think in this case they should be able to?

 

[Backache]

The driver has unknowingly broken the speed limit as the 30mph sign wasn't clear.
The law decides that despite the fact that he has broken the law because the signs weren't clear he should not be punished.

The guy who unknowingly tees off from the wrong teeing ground because the sign wasn't clear is punished.
It is my opinion if visitors are ''always getting it wrong'', then the club should not punish the golfer but should improve the signs.

Firstly I would completely agree that courses should be clearly labelled and the R&A's recommendations to committees state this.
The club is not punishing anyone , it is the committee for whatever tournament is being played , If you are going with friends and having a friendly match you are entirely welcome to observe or not rules as you wish.
In practice although I have occasionally been to clubs where on quiet days signpostin to the next tee is not clear I have not been playing tournaments at them. I can never recall a single time when at the tee there is not a marker at some point stating which tee number it is.
If you are in a tournament and it isn't clear you can look for a tee marker or ask someone.
Have you ever played a qualifying match at a course that is unfamiliar to you where there is no tee marker and no one to ask anywhere?.

 

[clubchamp98]

Although there was no intent, the player could still be gaining an advantage, they are still technically hitting a practice shot between holes. It may be the shot that sorts out their earlier driving woes. If they are still to play that hole later in the round, they definitely gain an advantage if they hit a decent shot, as they will know what club to hit when they play it for real. Unless someone is clearly cheating, it is probably fair to say that there is no intent for the vast majority of rule infringements. Teeing off the wrong tee pegs, hitting the wrong ball, not signing card, dropping in wrong place, etc. So, in all of those cases, should we just say if the player didn't intend to break the rule, let them off?

Ultimately, if you are new to the course, either check the card if available where the next hole is, and if you can't see the group you are following, at least check the sign on the tee. If there really is no signage at all on course or card, then you'd be justified in complaining to the club.

Technically they can’t be hitting a practice shot as they believe they are hitting the tee shot on the next hole.
So it’s not practice .

 

[Orikoru]

Even I understood this one guys. If you tee off the wrong hole and stuff it into a lake you didn't think you would reach, when you come to play that hole for real you'll go a club less won't you? Therefore deemed practise even though you didn't mean to. That's why it's a penalty, no more no less. Yes it's absolutely unfair if the signage is poor but there you go. Golf is unfair a lot of the time, I've noticed.

Personally I think a two shot penalty is too much. I would say a one shot penalty is fair - in essence that's just counting the shot you hit that was on the wrong hole. Two shots seems excessive for an honest mistake. (Just giving my opinion on it, please don't give me the usual rules is rules shtick.)

 

[backwoodsman]

Yes, Swango1980, you have caught my train of thought on this😀
I know I am a lone voice in the wilderness, and I agree that , if going by the letter of the rule I am right, that it is absurd in that when could a player be penalised from playing off the wrong hole.
To my mind, what is written is intended to penalise the chap playing the wrong hole, but it doesn't say that. What it says is
"from a wrong set of tee markers for a different teeing location on the same hole or a different hole"
This sentence is talking about where you have a hole with say three teeing areas and you use the wrong teeing area, or the teeing area of another hole but where you could still hit to the fairway of the hole you are playing.E.g
You are playing hole 6 but you ( mistakenly)hit off from nearby teeing area of hole 5 on to the fairway of hole 6.
The OP was talking about a possible scenario,( certainly possible on my course) where what should happen is , you finish a hole then walk not a few yards past two teeing areas for two other holes before you get to the next hole you should be playing, but you don't do that, instead, in error, you find your way to a completely different hole and play that one instead.On my course I have seen many strangers /society players do that.

I know what you chaps are saying and why you consider it covers someone playing the wrong hole, but I don't think the rule as written would withstand scrutiny by a team of QCs😁
However, rest assured, if I play the wrong hole in future, I'll take the penalty as you all see it. I'm not this pedantic on the golf course😀
Cheers

Where within the rules does it say any of this? You're making interpretations of something that's not there.

If the sequence of holes is X then Y, then when you finish X the next hole you are to play is Y. It doesn't matter where you actually are, or where you think you are, you are still starting hole Y. And the only permissible place to start Y is the designated teeing area of hole Y. Anywhere else incurs the penalty set out in 6.1b

 

[Swango1980]

The driver has unknowingly broken the speed limit as the 30mph sign wasn't clear.
The law decides that despite the fact that he has broken the law because the signs weren't clear he should not be punished.

The guy who unknowingly tees off from the wrong teeing ground because the sign wasn't clear is punished.
It is my opinion if visitors are ''always getting it wrong'', then the club should not punish the golfer but should improve the signs.

The Club does not have the right (or the Committee) to waive the Rules of Golf. A more common rule break is players not signing a card. If the Committee do not have a Clear Sign to members that they need to sign their card, should they ignore the DQ rule?

 

[Colin L]

Even I understood this one guys. If you tee off the wrong hole and stuff it into a lake you didn't think you would reach, when you come to play that hole for real you'll go a club less won't you? Therefore deemed practise even though you didn't mean to.

Not so. See post #85 The stroke is intended to start the hole and be part of knocking your ball from tee to hole for a score. Can't be practice.

In considering whether it is worth a two shot or just a one shot penalty, you need to evaluate the potential advantage, taking into account all sorts of possibilities. For instance playing off the red instead of the yellow tees on the 3rd on my course would gain you at best two yards but on the 6th it would not only gain you 70 yards but also enable you to avoid an intimidating drive between frequently hit trees and over a deep gully which generally has a goodly collection of balls in it. If taking relief getting that sort of advantage would almost certainly get you a DQ for a serious breach.

 

[Colin L]

Where within the rules does it say any of this? You're making interpretations of something that's not there.

If the sequence of holes is X then Y, then when you finish X the next hole you are to play is Y. It doesn't matter where you actually are, or where you think you are, you are still starting hole Y. And the only permissible place to start Y is the designated teeing area of hole Y. Anywhere else incurs the penalty set out in 6.1b

Keep going. We'll maybe get there eventually.

 

[Swango1980]

Not so. See post #85 The stroke is intended to start the hole and be part of knocking your ball from tee to hole for a score. Can't be practice.

In considering whether it is worth a two shot or just a one shot penalty, you need to evaluate the potential advantage, taking into account all sorts of possibilities. For instance playing off the red instead of the yellow tees on the 3rd on my course would gain you at best two yards but on the 6th it would not only gain you 70 yards but also enable you to avoid an intimidating drive between frequently hit trees and over a deep gully which generally has a goodly collection of balls in it. If taking relief getting that sort of advantage would almost certainly get you a DQ for a serious breach.

In this scenario, are you not assuming that the player tees off from the red tee (wrong tee) and doesn't correct their mistake? If so, that is DQ anyway, not a 2 shot penalty. You only get a 2 shot penalty as long as you then go back and tee off the correct tee. (if I understood your scenario correctly)