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PCC to be reviewed

Swango1980

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You continue to demonstrate your inability to listen. Not one person has raised an issue about PCC in my patch. Oh, wait a minute, someone did ask me what the initials PCC stood for but he didn't want to discuss it any further.

And, no, no-one is saying it's a great change - they are saying nothing.

That made me chuckle a little. I was imagining you giving him the answer, beginning to then explain what it was and that person stopping you immediately and saying "I have what I need, I do not wish to speak about this any further thanks"
 

wjemather

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To be fair...the article linked in the 1st post says there are mumbling about PCC and thats why they're going to look at it....
That isn't entirely accurate though. Taking the journalistic spin of the headline away, there is little more than confirmation that CONGU is doing exactly what they said they would do 18 months ago prior to implementation.

And all they can do (other than withdraw from WHS, which isn't going to happen) is take feedback from golfers, look into any concerns raised, and pass on their conclusions. Unless other authorities around the world have the same concerns and conclusions, it's very unlikely any changes will be made.
 

rulefan

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CONGU is doing exactly what they said they would do 18 months ago prior to implementation.
As EG have said -
As the WHS continues to settle in, the impact of PCC will be monitored around the world and, as part of a co-ordinated review process, it will be determined whether any changes are necessary in the future
 

rosecott

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That made me chuckle a little. I was imagining you giving him the answer, beginning to then explain what it was and that person stopping you immediately and saying "I have what I need, I do not wish to speak about this any further thanks"

You must have been eavesdropping.
 

Imurg

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That isn't entirely accurate though. Taking the journalistic spin of the headline away, there is little more than confirmation that CONGU is doing exactly what they said they would do 18 months ago prior to implementation.

And all they can do (other than withdraw from WHS, which isn't going to happen) is take feedback from golfers, look into any concerns raised, and pass on their conclusions. Unless other authorities around the world have the same concerns and conclusions, it's very unlikely any changes will be made.
"A lot of feedback we've had was about having a ridiculous wind or weather conditions that would have historically been the Competition Standard Scratch (CSS)adjustment and thats not been quite so prevalent under WHS"
Which part of "a lot of feedback" doesn't compute..?
If they'd had no feedback regarding PCC why would they be wasting time reviewing it.?
 

rosecott

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"A lot of feedback we've had was about having a ridiculous wind or weather conditions that would have historically been the Competition Standard Scratch (CSS)adjustment and thats not been quite so prevalent under WHS"
Which part of "a lot of feedback" doesn't compute..?
If they'd had no feedback regarding PCC why would they be wasting time reviewing it.?

Because a review of how WHS as a whole was working was always on the cards. You have to put in context that the OP was based only on comments from SGU officials.

Weather conditions and ridiculous wind did not automatically result in CSS changes - only the scores did that. Anyway, I thought you had taken an oath never to mention CSS?
 

wjemather

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"A lot of feedback we've had was about having a ridiculous wind or weather conditions that would have historically been the Competition Standard Scratch (CSS)adjustment and thats not been quite so prevalent under WHS"
If they'd had no feedback regarding PCC why would they be wasting time reviewing it.?
I'm not sure you read my post correctly as I did not say they had no feedback; quite the opposite, in fact.

Anyway, the point is, they are not doing anything they hadn't already said they would do, and it is just "one of the calculations that is being looked at through CONGU" (even if PCC is a described as a "key thing" by SG's COO). This isn't some epiphany or admittance of a great injustice that some seem to think it is. It is merely a routine part of the implementation and review process.
 
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rosecott

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From England Golf:

  • On days when the conditions are perceived to be difficult but there is no adjustment for PCC, this will be because a significant number of players have scored within their expected range
  • It is not just weather that can cause scores to be higher or lower than expected, as course conditions and course set up also play a key role and can contribute to a PCC adjustment (or lack of it)
  • Players are not expected to play to their handicap every time they go out, and this is reflected in the player’s expected scoring range that is used for the PCC

  • As the WHS continues to settle in, the impact of PCC will be monitored around the world and, as part of a co-ordinated review process, it will be determined whether any changes are necessary in the future
 
D

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From England Golf:

  • On days when the conditions are perceived to be difficult but there is no adjustment for PCC, this will be because a significant number of players have scored within their expected range
  • It is not just weather that can cause scores to be higher or lower than expected, as course conditions and course set up also play a key role and can contribute to a PCC adjustment (or lack of it)
  • Players are not expected to play to their handicap every time they go out, and this is reflected in the player’s expected scoring range that is used for the PCC

  • As the WHS continues to settle in, the impact of PCC will be monitored around the world and, as part of a co-ordinated review process, it will be determined whether any changes are necessary in the future
All of these points applied just as equally to CSS, and we knew that. Nobody is arguing with what is taken into account, it's the lack of sensitivity that is the issue, and causing PCC to remain static almost all the time whereas CSS would have bene moving
 

wjemather

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All of these points applied just as equally to CSS, and we knew that. Nobody is arguing with what is taken into account, it's the lack of sensitivity that is the issue, and causing PCC to remain static almost all the time whereas CSS would have bene moving
They are similar (could possibly be considered the same) concepts, but they do not apply equally.
A couple of the more significant differences being that CSS did not account for Slope (which is a stroke or two, or more, for most players at most courses), and buffer zones meant scoring ranges were narrower and at the better end of what should actually be expected.
 
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Foxholer

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They are similar (could possibly be considered the same) concepts, but they do not apply equally.
A couple of the more significant differences being that CSS did not account for Slope (which is a stroke or two, or more, for most players at most courses), and the buffer zones meant scoring ranges were narrower and at the better end of what should actually be expected.
I wouldn't associate Slope with CSS. Two different attributes imo. Certainly one changes according to handicap while the other doesn't. Buffer zone perhaps 'slope-ish' perhaps, but also unlikely.
 

wjemather

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I wouldn't associate Slope with CSS. Two different attributes imo. Certainly one changes according to handicap while the other doesn't. Buffer zone perhaps 'slope-ish' perhaps, but also unlikely.
I'm going to over-simplify things somewhat here, but it would be extremely involved otherwise...

Take an average course of average Slope (about 125). By simply adopting Slope (edit: under UHS), play-to-handicap score and buffer become a stroke or more higher for most golfers. This naturally results in an increase in the proportion of scores in or better than buffer, and consequentially, a reduction in the number and frequency of upward CSS adjustments.
 
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Foxholer

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I'm going to over-simplify things somewhat here, but it would be extremely involved otherwise...

Take an average course of average Slope (about 125). By simply adopting Slope, play-to-handicap score and buffer become a stroke or more higher for most golfers. This naturally results in an increase in the proportion of scores in or better than buffer, and consequentially, a reduction in the number and frequency of upward CSS adjustments.
Buffer?? No such thing in WHS. And significantly against both the concept of WHS (Scratch vs Bogey oriented) and what PCC is all about. Still doesn't ovrcome the apparent shrinkage of PCC +2 or more vs CSS.
 

wjemather

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Buffer?? No such thing in WHS. And significantly against both the concept of WHS (Scratch vs Bogey oriented) and what PCC is all about. Still doesn't ovrcome the apparent shrinkage of PCC +2 or more vs CSS.
We're at cross-purposes (previous post edited for clarity). I was attempting to illustrate the potential effect of adopting Slope under UHS; the purpose being to highlight that Slope plays a significant part of the reduction in adjustments that have been seen under WHS.
 

Foxholer

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We're at cross-purposes (previous post edited for clarity). I was attempting to illustrate the potential effect of adopting Slope under UHS; the purpose being to highlight that Slope plays a significant part of the reduction in adjustments that have been seen under WHS.
Ah, I see.
But I'm not convinced it does/would. Slope, alone.gives same 'expectation' of scores irrespective of conditions. So if there's an adjustment reqd, it's a separate calc. If anything, I believe it's related to the bunch of parms and weightings, that I alluded to in a post, with link, about WCA a couple of days ago. Their purpose/calc were not explained.
 

rulefan

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Jut playing around but

Under UHS a field of 18 cappers are playing a CR/SSS 72 course and all take 94 stokes. Would there be a CSS adjustment? If so what?
Under WHS scoring with their CHs now 21, would there be a PCC adjustment?
 

Foxholer

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Jut playing around but

Under UHS a field of 18 cappers are playing a CR/SSS 72 course and all take 94 stokes. Would there be a CSS adjustment? If so what?
Under WHS scoring with their CHs now 21, would there be a PCC adjustment?
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
And indicates there's likely to be something in what @wjemather mentioned a few posts ago!:oops:
 
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D

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Jut playing around but

Under UHS a field of 18 cappers are playing a CR/SSS 72 course and all take 94 stokes. Would there be a CSS adjustment? If so what?
Under WHS scoring with their CHs now 21, would there be a PCC adjustment?
What's their adjusted scores?
 
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