PCC to be reviewed

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Any idea how they could do that? The calculation of a handicap is a precise mathematical exercise (albeit based upon an element of spurious data in the form of the slope rating), but any adjustment for conditions would surely be somewhat arbitrary.
 

Foxholer

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Any idea how they could do that? The calculation of a handicap is a precise mathematical exercise (albeit based upon an element of spurious data in the form of the slope rating), but any adjustment for conditions would surely be somewhat arbitrary.
That too IS and would be 'a precise mathematical exercise' albeit using data that is somewhat random.
It simply needs looking at because it doesn't seem to reflect its purpose very well.
 

sweaty sock

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Its a particular pain because of general play rounds.

Most players avoid putting in general play rounds during poor conditions so its very difficult to justify a change if theres only a small number of data points. The problem existed with css too, but the seldom general play rounds meant the issue never came up...
 

Maninblack4612

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Any idea how they could do that? The calculation of a handicap is a precise mathematical exercise (albeit based upon an element of spurious data in the form of the slope rating), but any adjustment for conditions would surely be somewhat arbitrary.
Surely a mathematical calculation could be made comparing average scores returned in easy conditions with those in more challenging weather. From experience, my score in very windy conditions, which are common on my exposed course, is likely to be up to 6 shots higher than I would shoot in ideal conditions. If follows that the handicap of anyone who, like me, doesn't play when conditions are bad is likely to be too low OR the PCC doesn't work properly. I'm convinced that it is the latter. You shouldn't be able to manipulate your handicap by choosing the conditions in which you play.
 

Imurg

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Surely a mathematical calculation could be made comparing average scores returned in easy conditions with those in more challenging weather. From experience, my score in very windy conditions, which are common on my exposed course, is likely to be up to 6 shots higher than I would shoot in ideal conditions. If follows that the handicap of anyone who, like me, doesn't play when conditions are bad is likely to be too low OR the PCC doesn't work properly. I'm convinced that it is the latter. You shouldn't be able to manipulate your handicap by choosing the conditions in which you play.
That's been happening for years.
I can remember low handicappers withdrawing from comps because the weather meant an almost certain 0.1..
 

Foxholer

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Surely a mathematical calculation could be made comparing average scores returned in easy conditions with those in more challenging weather. From experience, my score in very windy conditions, which are common on my exposed course, is likely to be up to 6 shots higher than I would shoot in ideal conditions. If follows that the handicap of anyone who, like me, doesn't play when conditions are bad is likely to be too low OR the PCC doesn't work properly. I'm convinced that it is the latter. You shouldn't be able to manipulate your handicap by choosing the conditions in which you play.
I agree with some of this. Though how YOU score in very windy conditions may not, in itself, reflect how anybody/everybody else scores in those conditions.
 

Bdill93

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Its broken at the minute for sure

Ive got historical scores from pre-WHS comps that have PCC's of 2 or 3 in conditions that were better than Ive played in this year and not a single score has had a PCC added to it.
 

wjemather

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Its broken at the minute for sure

Ive got historical scores from pre-WHS comps that have PCC's of 2 or 3 in conditions that were better than Ive played in this year and not a single score has had a PCC added to it.
They are not PCCs - they are merely transposed CSS calculations. Chances are, if they were able to be recalculated using PCC, most would be zero.
 

Bdill93

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They are not PCCs - they are merely transposed CSS calculations. Chances are, if they were able to be recalculated using PCC, most would be zero.

Point stands - used to have adjustments pre-WHS for playing conditions being tough and now we have zero.
 
D

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Everyone knows that a 3 handicap at one course is maybe 7 at another.
They might well be the same handicap, but shoot different scores because of course difficulty, hence course rating differences (or previously SSS).
 

wjemather

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Surely a mathematical calculation could be made comparing average scores returned in easy conditions with those in more challenging weather. From experience, my score in very windy conditions, which are common on my exposed course, is likely to be up to 6 shots higher than I would shoot in ideal conditions. If follows that the handicap of anyone who, like me, doesn't play when conditions are bad is likely to be too low OR the PCC doesn't work properly. I'm convinced that it is the latter. You shouldn't be able to manipulate your handicap by choosing the conditions in which you play.
Prevalent windy conditions are (or should be) accounted for in the Course and Slope Ratings. As such, PCC should not be expected to move upwards just because it's windy; in fact, the opposite is likely true, and it may be expected to move down in calm conditions.

Of course, it is impossible to control when people choose to play and conditions affect different players scoring very differently. Just because you estimate you're 6 strokes worse in the wind, doesn't that anyone else is. And like everyone, I'm sure you're more than capable of having a disaster in ideal scoring conditions.
 

wjemather

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Point stands - used to have adjustments pre-WHS for playing conditions being tough and now we have zero.
This is never how it has worked. And how could it, since "playing conditions being tough" is entirely subjective.

CSS was heavily skewed by the scoring of a small number of lower handicap players based on an unrealistic expectation that they can be expected to return scores within a stroke of their handicap. Extensive analysis has shown that even elite (scratch or better) players should be expected to return scores up to two or three strokes worse than that. If UHS had accounted for this, buffers would have been much greater and CSS would have moved about as regularly as PCC does.

PCC is much more balanced in how it accounts for scores from across the handicap range, and is orders of magnitude more realistic about players expected scoring ability.
 

IanM

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There's too much scope for sarcasm here.... from me mainly!

Where I think there's an issue, is a perceived lack of logic on occasion.

Users of something need to have a level of understanding of likely outcomes. Note, I'm defining "users" as average club golfers, not rules students.
 

Swango1980

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I've heard many golfers question the PCC calculation, and that it makes no sense. Despite no one actually knowing how it works, I've also heard other golfers strongly defend it. So, does that mean that if the PCC calculation is reviewed and changed, will the first set of golfers be justified in their questioning of it?
 
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