Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
A little harsh I feel Jim.....a dislike may be a better description
PCC to be reviewed
- Thread starter rulefan
- Start date
Foxholer
Blackballed
It's not an 'expected score' it's an expected range. Your 'Best 8' probably is a better indicator. Your worst 6 from your best 8 and best 6 from worst 12 probably even better.
D
Deleted member 3432
Guest
Had an interesting chat with our assistant today.
Greenstaff are re-doing almost all the bunker revetting this winter, course is going to look tremendous in the summer when we are Hosting the Carris Trophy. I commented to him if he knew what the plans were regarding the rough fot the Carris bearing in mind the how the course was presented for the English Am in 2012 when there was some juicy stuff in certain parts of the course. Left hand side of the 5th was a case in point, I remember needing 3 goes to wedge it back onto the fairway about a week before the event.
We have been asked to set the course up 'fair' to the CR. Is he not allowed to let the rough grow a little longer for these elite level golfers? if its firm and running they will be hitting irons on most holes so they should be expected to keep it on the short stuff and if its blows no doubt England Golf will move a couple of tees forward as they did for the final round of the English Mid Am a fews years back (oh how the members laughed at that one...)
Point I'm making is if PCC works why the directive regarding CR for what is an elite event were the majority of the field will significantly lower than scratch?
Greenstaff are re-doing almost all the bunker revetting this winter, course is going to look tremendous in the summer when we are Hosting the Carris Trophy. I commented to him if he knew what the plans were regarding the rough fot the Carris bearing in mind the how the course was presented for the English Am in 2012 when there was some juicy stuff in certain parts of the course. Left hand side of the 5th was a case in point, I remember needing 3 goes to wedge it back onto the fairway about a week before the event.
We have been asked to set the course up 'fair' to the CR. Is he not allowed to let the rough grow a little longer for these elite level golfers? if its firm and running they will be hitting irons on most holes so they should be expected to keep it on the short stuff and if its blows no doubt England Golf will move a couple of tees forward as they did for the final round of the English Mid Am a fews years back (oh how the members laughed at that one...)
Point I'm making is if PCC works why the directive regarding CR for what is an elite event were the majority of the field will significantly lower than scratch?
rulefan
Tour Winner
Why are you suggesting that PCC wouldn't work as designed? It is not a matter of comparing it with what the CSS might or might not have been.
Of course the scoring range for those players will be pretty narrow but there wouldn't be a significant number of abnormal scores.
D
Deleted member 3432
Guest
I'm not suggesting that it wouldn't work as designed. Maybe I should have raised this elsewhere.
What I'm wondering is the direction from EG to set the course up 'fair' to Course rating whatever that means. Brian Story is a great greenkeeper but he can't prevent 35 mph winds showing up that week....
As I said the English Am had some longer rough than we usually see in areas lacking heather or gorse and I would have expected to see the same this summer seeing it is an elite field. The directive suggests a course set up no different from what we members play. A hard course set up shoudn't matter as PCC would pick that up surely?
doublebogey7
Head Pro
Or perhaps it's because it's a Boy's even Not sure why you would draw the conclusion that it would have anything to do with PCC anyhow. In my experience elite competition organisers limit tough set ups only for the very biggest events as generally they prefer to see good scoring these days.
Foxholer
Blackballed
They probably want it close to 'standard' so 'silly' scores that can come from a combo of setup and conditions are less likely to happen. Tough but fair is probably the guide.
I believe, from a past winner, that that's how The Brabazon courses ar set up. It's only the likes of US Opens that are set up deliberately severely. Augusta isn't as the greens make it 'tough enough'.
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rulefan
Tour Winner
Having been involved in or responsible for 'setting up' courses for elite players (albeit at county level) that is spot on. I doubt that unless really brutal weather by NW coast standards rears up, the standard and consistency of the best youngsters in the land will not trouble the PCC calculations.
A field that has too many disastrous scores is not good news for the competition administrators. EG in this case don't want egg on their faces.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Just for info. I am told that CONGU does not now have any direct say in its calculation. But are represented on the Operations Committee. The WHS research people have now been provided with all the 2021 data and are working on it. Let's wait and see.
YandaB
Newbie
It was a little breezy yesterday and there was a seniors competition on, PCC was 3, not seen that before under new rules (not sure I did under old ones either). It has to be said I don't look regularly but it does show it can move when the conditions are right.
Trodski
Member
Long time lurker but interested to know answer to a question;
Played yesterday and put in a general play round, perfect conditions no wind, 17 degrees, PCC 3. Couldn’t believe it. Last year played in horrific conditions a few times with terrible scores from the field with no change.
Checked on how did I do this morning and there was a ladies competition on yesterday and not to be disparaging but most are slightly senior in years and return very poor stableford scores.
The winning score was 33 points and the field average was an estimate of 24 points from 30 players.
My question is will my general play score be compared against the ladies as part of the PCC calculation? That’s the only way I can see how they can arrive at a PCC of 3.
Although my aim is to reduce my handicap a 0.4 cut was not accurate IMO and wouldn’t have been if the field differed.
Played yesterday and put in a general play round, perfect conditions no wind, 17 degrees, PCC 3. Couldn’t believe it. Last year played in horrific conditions a few times with terrible scores from the field with no change.
Checked on how did I do this morning and there was a ladies competition on yesterday and not to be disparaging but most are slightly senior in years and return very poor stableford scores.
The winning score was 33 points and the field average was an estimate of 24 points from 30 players.
My question is will my general play score be compared against the ladies as part of the PCC calculation? That’s the only way I can see how they can arrive at a PCC of 3.
Although my aim is to reduce my handicap a 0.4 cut was not accurate IMO and wouldn’t have been if the field differed.
wjemather
Well-known member
Yes. There is (usually) only one PCC calculation per course per day, and it includes all scores from all sets of tees.
Trodski
Member
Interesting. I’m sure if there was a men’s comp and a ladies comp on the same day at our club there would be a quite a big difference between the scores of the fields.
This would certainly dissuade me from submitting a general play round when there is a ladies comp in the future, if we want a reflective handicap.
This would certainly dissuade me from submitting a general play round when there is a ladies comp in the future, if we want a reflective handicap.
wjemather
Well-known member
If everyone's handicap is a true reflection of their scoring ability, and everyone is trying to make their best score on each hole, the system will work perfectly well. Even so, the impact of an individual PCC is minimal on the overall index (0.4 at most).
If your senior ladies are anything like ours, most will be counting scores from 3+ years ago, so their handicaps could be way off where they should be. Sounds like there may be some work for your handicap committee to investigate.
IanMcC
Well-known member
You are surely one of the more informed members of the forum, but I find your comments in this post ageist, elitist and sexist.
Truth of the matter is, until the algorithm is published, no one knows how PCC works.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Seems to me, it simply a case of being realistic! Nothing of any of those '3 sins', so much as an instance demonstrating how an abberation of the PCC can be occur by the returns on the particular day - in this case as outlined in post 251. The fact that the season proper is just beginning possibly had an influence on the scores too.
wjemather
Well-known member
Not in the slightest - it's an accurate representation of not just the handicaps of that demographic at my club, but also my wife's club.
In general, seniors have handicaps that are increasing, i.e. they are declining golfers. 90% of our senior ladies went into WHS with less than 10 scores on their record, mostly from 2018 and 2019. Most of them have not submitted enough qualifying rounds since then (because they often don't want to commit to playing a full 9 or 18) to push these out of the most recent 20. In many cases, all recent scores are more than 5 over handicap, and almost none are counting. No ladies were flagged for review.
We do not know the exact formulae to be able to calculate it ourselves, but we do know the methodology of how PCC works.
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rulefan
Tour Winner
A review by our Lady Vice Captain found a very similar situation at my club but I suspect a fair number of senior males would fit the picture
wjemather
Well-known member
Indeed, but sheer weight of numbers of senior men who play comps regularly (twice a month, often more frequently) and submit GP scores, means that similar distortion of the PCC is much less likely during the period where their handicaps adjust.A review by our Lady Vice Captain found a very similar situation at my club but I suspect a fair number of senior males would fit the picture
I would think there is enough data publicly available from competition results and the corresponding PCCs, that it should not be very difficult to reverse engineer it at this stage and make it effectively public or at least give people a good feel for its dynamic. I was wondering if it had changed already this year actually, as while last year we had almost no adjustments even when we would have expected in the past from CSS and none by more that a shot, this year in my club we have had 6 qualify competitions, and one was increased by 1 shot, another by 2.
