Patrick Read’s caddie

Colin L

Tour Winner
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
5,269
Location
Edinburgh
Visit site
One thing I would add, this thread has been running for a while now and we haven't had any input from one of our resident rules experts which we normally would have, maybe there is a bit of a grey area here?

Running for a while? It was only started at 5.49 this evening!

Anyway, you guys are doing a good enough if protracted job. (y)
 

Philbyk1

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
Visit site
What a boorish little man you are. Snipping away but not actually adding any value. Thankfully I am in contact with two tour caddies who are looking in to it as they agree it is very odd and had not noticed it before. I wont bother posting any developments as clearly you know everything already!
 

SammmeBee

Journeyman Pro
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
3,707
Location
Where the Queen Lives!
Visit site
What a boorish little man you are. Snipping away but not actually adding any value. Thankfully I am in contact with two tour caddies who are looking in to it as they agree it is very odd and had not noticed it before. I wont bother posting any developments as clearly you know everything already!

And this is how it starts....just keep asking the same stupid question enough times abs sane people start the doubt themselves for no good reason.....

I see one of those pics was with a brolly.....assume that wasn’t today!?!
 

backwoodsman

Tour Winner
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
6,768
Location
sarf Lunnon
Visit site
Given that there's a referee with them - and Tour referees tend to be pretty conversant with the rules - , I suspect they'd have pulled him on this if it were in fact illegal.
 

bladeplayer

Money List Winner
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
9,142
Location
Emerald Isle
Visit site
Cant say ive noticed but does he leave it there when putting or take it with him ? If its not left there during the stroke i cant see there bn any issues
 

Philbyk1

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
Visit site
Given that there's a referee with them - and Tour referees tend to be pretty conversant with the rules - , I suspect they'd have pulled him on this if it were in fact illegal.
Thanks for your reasoned reply. I agree I have never seen anything like it before. Every time in Dubai he got to the flag first he placed the flag down in a very precise way across the green and perpendicular (shame google has been down as most on here will have to wait until tomorrow to find out what that means) to the hole. He does it at all tournaments so not isolated. I have found over 50 images of him doing it but not one of any other pro or caddie doing the same. So clearly unique to him.
On occasions he also lies down on top of it. Consensus at least from this thread is that he is not gaining any read but it is a very strange ritual to repeat over and over. I was assuming there was some rule relating to this as clearly you cant use the flag to say help with lining the putt up and there must be other restrictions about its use. thanks anyway. Thanks anyway
 

Philbyk1

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
Visit site
Cant say ive noticed but does he leave it there when putting or take it with him ? If its not left there during the stroke i cant see there bn any issues

No he does not leave it there during putting but it is so precise it gives the impression it is part of his process of reading the putt. To me that make sense as the flag gives reference. If you put two dots on a wall and ask someone if they are level you will get a much more accurate response if you join the lines. The flag does much the same on a green as without the flag we are influenced by the background and the rest of the green. A common misread is when a putt goes subtly against the general shape of the green or is a double breaker. The flag helps isolate the field of vision as you can see if the actual putting line is above or below the flag especially when you lie flat on the ground as he does. When you watch Justin Rose putt he uses his feet to determine the slope. There is a great youtube clip (attached) of him explaining why he does this and how he is looking for the flat putt point. I simply believe Reed's caddie is using the flag do something similar.
I think you are saying you can use the flag as long as you take it away. all good then

 

Colin L

Tour Winner
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
5,269
Location
Edinburgh
Visit site
Just two questions for you, Philbyk1, one mathematical and one anatomical.
1. In what sense is the flagstick perpendicular to the hole? A diagram would help.
2. Since the only "evidence" you have provided shows the caddie lying on top of the flagstick, could you explain how he uses it in this position to visualise the slope of the green? Doe he have an extra eye in his navel?
 

bladeplayer

Money List Winner
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
9,142
Location
Emerald Isle
Visit site
No he does not leave it there during putting but it is so precise it gives the impression it is part of his process of reading the putt. To me that make sense as the flag gives reference. If you put two dots on a wall and ask someone if they are level you will get a much more accurate response if you join the lines. The flag does much the same on a green as without the flag we are influenced by the background and the rest of the green. A common misread is when a putt goes subtly against the general shape of the green or is a double breaker. The flag helps isolate the field of vision as you can see if the actual putting line is above or below the flag especially when you lie flat on the ground as he does. When you watch Justin Rose putt he uses his feet to determine the slope. There is a great youtube clip (attached) of him explaining why he does this and how he is looking for the flat putt point. I simply believe Reed's caddie is using the flag do something similar.
I think you are saying you can use the flag as long as you take it away. all good then

I think that may be the case . As far as i know u may do it once it doent indicate the line , fairly sure u couldnt purposely lay it along the putt at any time .. probably in rule 10/1 10/2 somewhere .. cant be sure tho , not a rule expert by any means .
 

pendodave

Tour Rookie
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
3,154
Visit site
Very late to this thread, but is there a particular reason why the op is getting such a hard time?
It does look odd.
I doubt it's being done accidentally (though players and caddies have plenty of bizarre and pointless rituals).
So why not question the legality. If only out of curiosity?
To me, it has shades of the aimpoint technique, but using the feel of the flag as a means of testing the slope. Also gives a visual indication if the high end of the flag touches the surface.
Given the somewhat esoteric nature of parts of the rulebook, it seems a fair question.
 

Philbyk1

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
Visit site
It is always flag down first, then step behind and look at the putt crouching. Then he sometimes goes flat on the ground to see the line of the putt from closer.

The perpendicular point is best described if you think what Rose does which is aim point putting method. See attached how in point one the man is using his feet to determine the slope. He stands behind the ball with his feet either side of the ball. This gives him the feel of whether the green is slopping. If his left foot feels lower than his right the putt is likely to be right to left and vice versa. All I think Reeds caddie is doing is using the flag for the same affect. He always places it across the green see picture for demonstration. It amplifies the slope but is the same principle of using feet and balance.

The shots of him lying flat on the ground are after he has viewed the flag lying on its own on the ground. Best example was on 9 yesterday when Reed actually missed a short one. I have attached a picture of the caddie in the process of placing the flag perpendicular to the hole. if after placing the right side of the flag is higher when viewed from our view it is a right to left putt. it simply replaces the feet in the aim point process. think of the guy in point one placing a flag across his feet with the flag.


https://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/news-and-events/general-news/2018/may/what-is-aim-point-putting
 

Attachments

  • Reed 6.png
    Reed 6.png
    795.5 KB · Views: 8

bladeplayer

Money List Winner
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
9,142
Location
Emerald Isle
Visit site
Very late to this thread, but is there a particular reason why the op is getting such a hard time?
It does look odd.
I doubt it's being done accidentally (though players and caddies have plenty of bizarre and pointless rituals).
So why not question the legality. If only out of curiosity?
To me, it has shades of the aimpoint technique, but using the feel of the flag as a means of testing the slope. Also gives a visual indication if the high end of the flag touches the surface.
Given the somewhat esoteric nature of parts of the rulebook, it seems a fair question.
Esoteric ????????
 

Philbyk1

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
73
Visit site
Very late to this thread, but is there a particular reason why the op is getting such a hard time?
It does look odd.
I doubt it's being done accidentally (though players and caddies have plenty of bizarre and pointless rituals).
So why not question the legality. If only out of curiosity?
To me, it has shades of the aimpoint technique, but using the feel of the flag as a means of testing the slope. Also gives a visual indication if the high end of the flag touches the surface.
Given the somewhat esoteric nature of parts of the rulebook, it seems a fair question.
Yes much more succinct question can you use a flag to help with aim point.
 
Top