bobmac
Major Champion
I'm talking about medal, SI doesn't apply.
Par 71
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Bob, this has been a good discussion, thank you. Nice to have a discussion where no ones ego decides to take over. Just simple back and forth, people making points etc :thup:
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Kinda relevant
I played a few holes with a ET pro and one happened to be the toughest long par 4 on the course, he got 3 and I asked him how many times out of 10 would he expect to birdie it
He said every time
I played a few holes with a ET pro and one happened to be the toughest long par 4 on the course, he got 3 and I asked him how many times out of 10 would he expect to birdie it
He said every time
bobmac
Major Champion
I'm just trying to get people to improve their golf, not by playing better but by thinking better.
As I said to Homer, if you think like a 15 h/capper you'll never get to single figures.
Canfordhacker
Q-School Graduate
Some good back and forth. Rather than think of settling for a nett par, I like to think how I can position myself (on difficult holes) where I have a realistic chance of up and down for nett birdie. That helps me limit the double bogies, keep a positive mindset, and try to improve.
r0wly86
Head Pro
very interesting thread. Can see where Bob is coming from and largely agree.
Just to expand, hitting a long par 4 in 2 and two putting is not the only way to get par. Not smashing a long iron in an attempt to hit the green may be the best way to get par. Hit a mid iron and a wedge and you could be giving yourself a very good chance to get a 4.
But the mind set as Bob says is wrong, if you are happy to hit the green in 3 and 2 putt then that is what is going to happen. If your mind set is to get the ball close after 3 and get your par you will have a better chance
Just to expand, hitting a long par 4 in 2 and two putting is not the only way to get par. Not smashing a long iron in an attempt to hit the green may be the best way to get par. Hit a mid iron and a wedge and you could be giving yourself a very good chance to get a 4.
But the mind set as Bob says is wrong, if you are happy to hit the green in 3 and 2 putt then that is what is going to happen. If your mind set is to get the ball close after 3 and get your par you will have a better chance
In all of this, if it is a long par 4 then you need the ability to reach in 2. It is one thing to have the mindset, I can have that. However if you simply can not reach in two that is a different matter.
A reachable par 4, play safe or be aggressive, that is a different matter and I agree with what Bob is saying and perhaps I need to do that more.
A reachable par 4, play safe or be aggressive, that is a different matter and I agree with what Bob is saying and perhaps I need to do that more.
bobmac
Major Champion
You're almost there.
There is no nett score, there is no stroke index, there's no shots, there's just the next shot and the best score you can make and add it up at the end.
I know people use their handicap as a safety net.....''it's ok, I get a shot here''
I used to do it myself.
When I turned pro and lost my h/cap, I lost that luxury, I had no buffer, nothing to fall back on and I immediately dropped 3 or 4 shots off my scores as I had no h/cap to use/help me out.
It may be a cliché but it's true.........one shot at a time and reassess the hole after every shot.
bobmac
Major Champion
Orikoru
Tour Winner
All good stuff Bob. Our club's winter comps tend to be Stableford, whereas now we're moving into medal season, so I will definitely try and train myself to think in these terms. In many ways it's simplifying it - just get the ball to the cup in the least shots and ignore par, handicap, stroke index, everything.
Funnily enough I have just walked my dog around the ind estate where I work, she comes with me, and I have been thinking about this and the course that I play at. The shortest par 4 is 399yds meaning that outside of a dry summer I can not reach any par 4 in 2 shots. "How do I better my h/c following this thread?" was the thought. I was playing each hole through in my head and the third shot was consistently coming in at around 40-50yds, not for the 399 one but the others. That shot is probably the key shot for me to improve if I want to set up lower scores. I'm not bad at it already but I need to get it razor sharp. :thup:
don't forget to also ignore the water, the trees, the bunkers, the OOB etc, ha ha.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
If only my ball would ignore them!
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Having just got my handicap back to 8 - having last played to 8 about 25 years ago and in the interim drifted up to 13 - and aiming to get to 6 this season - I realised on Saturday that just can't afford to luxuriate in the 'I've got a shot on this hole' thinking. I could do that when I had more shots 'to play with' but now I'm getting towards the serious end of the handicap spectrum I have got to aim to score best I can on every hole.
So for instance where earlier I said I'd accept a 5 on our hardest hole as I have a shot - that's old thinking - and I must change that thinking. OK in stableford maybe - but it won't work in medal. I know I can par the hole so I must be aiming to par it every time as I need the shot that that hole 'apparently' offers - though in fact in a medal it doesn't. I can't just use up a shot of my handicap because I think the hole is hard. In medal SI is irrelevant. I have to change my mindset.
one of the guys i play with is getting on a bit but still off 3 (69), he can't really reach any par 4 over 380 ish and to make it even harder he has his handicap at the other course which is 6800 off the whites, admittedly the css is always 2 or 3 shots over par, but he has a great short game and it shows, not everyone that is a low handicap bombs it 300 yards
one of the guys i play with is getting on a bit but still off 3 (69), he can't really reach any par 4 over 380 ish and to make it even harder he has his handicap at the other course which is 6800 off the whites, admittedly the css is always 2 or 3 shots over par, but he has a great short game and it shows, not everyone that is a low handicap bombs it 300 yards
Totally accept that. The more I play the better my short game becomes. Unfortunately I do not get to play that intensely often enough. When I do get a run of games in close time the short game really tightens up and the scores improve but family life usually gets in the way. Part of the big picture, hey ho. You are correct though, a better short game and putting would knock shots off my game in quick time.
D
Deleted member 1147
Guest
A good example of what I believe Bob is alluding to can be found at my club.
The white tees are par 72, SSS 73
The Blue tees are par 70, SSS 74
Two of the shorter par 5's, about 490 yds, become par 4's off the blue (championshp) tees.
In effect the course is harder by 1 shot (74-73), not because of those two holes, as they play off exactly the same tees for whites and blues, but because a lot of the other holes play from further back. As such, the par on those two holes may have come down, but the number of shots you're "expected" to take has stayed pretty much the same.
The white tees are par 72, SSS 73
The Blue tees are par 70, SSS 74
Two of the shorter par 5's, about 490 yds, become par 4's off the blue (championshp) tees.
In effect the course is harder by 1 shot (74-73), not because of those two holes, as they play off exactly the same tees for whites and blues, but because a lot of the other holes play from further back. As such, the par on those two holes may have come down, but the number of shots you're "expected" to take has stayed pretty much the same.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
We have 5 rated men's tees - all are par 72. SSS on the other hand is 74/73/71/69/67.
Whilst I'm a reasonably long hitter non of the par 5s becomes reachable for me, and you certainly don't get to drive any of the par 4s! What fundamentally changes is a couple of effectively unreachable par 4s become reachable, a few difficult driving holes become easier from 3 yds and a different angle etc etc ie it's just a shorter version of the same course. Changing the pars to reflect the tees would be really quite silly on some holes!
garyinderry
Ryder Cup Winner
There is two holes on my home course where I would nearly take a bogey and walk to the next tee. both longish par 4's. Into the wind I might not make it even with two good slaps.
The first is the 4th. Dog leg right. There is enough room to safely miss left of the green so I will often take out the 3 wood and bang it as hard as I can and let it cut/slice back towards the hole. Big deep bunkers are to be avoided right of the green. Anywhere within 20 yards I usually have a chance of making the 4.
The next is the 6th. Par 4 with 2nd pkaying a club extra at least. There is quite a few bushes to catch balls left on the approach and missing right is simply a lost ball. If I dont get within 170 yards of this I often play a punchy one to lay up as its not worth blowing the round so early.
These for me are two card wreaker holes. 7 and 8 are good birdie chances so I don't beat myself up with bogie on either. A par at both or one of them is fine.
After that I tend to put the foot down. I am wary of 15 too which is SI 1. Longish par 4 with oob all down the right. Tend to make par here more than the other two. Again bogie isn't the worst score.
I average at least a birdie a round so in my mind that takes care of at least one hole I may settle for the bogie and avoid the big number.
Could be why I am off 8 and not 5 , but also why I am off 8 and not 11.
The first is the 4th. Dog leg right. There is enough room to safely miss left of the green so I will often take out the 3 wood and bang it as hard as I can and let it cut/slice back towards the hole. Big deep bunkers are to be avoided right of the green. Anywhere within 20 yards I usually have a chance of making the 4.
The next is the 6th. Par 4 with 2nd pkaying a club extra at least. There is quite a few bushes to catch balls left on the approach and missing right is simply a lost ball. If I dont get within 170 yards of this I often play a punchy one to lay up as its not worth blowing the round so early.
These for me are two card wreaker holes. 7 and 8 are good birdie chances so I don't beat myself up with bogie on either. A par at both or one of them is fine.
After that I tend to put the foot down. I am wary of 15 too which is SI 1. Longish par 4 with oob all down the right. Tend to make par here more than the other two. Again bogie isn't the worst score.
I average at least a birdie a round so in my mind that takes care of at least one hole I may settle for the bogie and avoid the big number.
Could be why I am off 8 and not 5 , but also why I am off 8 and not 11.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
I find the concept of the par 4.3 hole useful. I don't stand on the tee accepting that I will drop a shot, but I certainly don't aim to hit the green in regulation either! I have definitely made more 4s than 8s with this mental card in my pack.
