Jacko_G
Blackballed
First out should be 3/3.5 hours, no hold ups, free run. Set the standard early.
Pace of play obsessions
- Thread starter jamielaing
- Start date
First out should be 3/3.5 hours, no hold ups, free run. Set the standard early.
Jacko_G
Blackballed
Love how all those people moaning about playing ready considerate golf can't accept it and refer to it as "running round the course"!!!
And those who think they have a right to take as long as they want because they've had a stressful week at work! WTF!!!
This is why we're in the position we're in.
And those who think they have a right to take as long as they want because they've had a stressful week at work! WTF!!!
This is why we're in the position we're in.
Wolf
Well-known member
Also thinking about it more
Controversial statement I know and partly wrong because we know there are people who have celebrated birthdays & Christmas they've taken so long to get round, and slow play can be an issue. But the reason I make that statement and say its only partly wrong is because for all the complaining every golfer makes about slow play and its actual existence, I've yet to ever meet a golfer that owns up to or accepts that they're a slow player! It's always someone else's fault.
So until people can admit to being slow you will never solve the issue. As for your suggestion how do you propose that actually works because a lot of clubs won't have the money or resources to Marshall speed of play, players can't self assess as they won't admit fault, plus memberships paid equally have to give everyone equal opportunity to have early and late tee times, take this away and you could lose members.
Like I said I do believe that there is some merit in your idea but that's in an ideal world.
Simple answer to that question Bob and to why slow play won't stop. Because slow play doesn't really exist!
Controversial statement I know and partly wrong because we know there are people who have celebrated birthdays & Christmas they've taken so long to get round, and slow play can be an issue. But the reason I make that statement and say its only partly wrong is because for all the complaining every golfer makes about slow play and its actual existence, I've yet to ever meet a golfer that owns up to or accepts that they're a slow player! It's always someone else's fault.
So until people can admit to being slow you will never solve the issue. As for your suggestion how do you propose that actually works because a lot of clubs won't have the money or resources to Marshall speed of play, players can't self assess as they won't admit fault, plus memberships paid equally have to give everyone equal opportunity to have early and late tee times, take this away and you could lose members.
Like I said I do believe that there is some merit in your idea but that's in an ideal world.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
The real simple answer is that you can’t define “slow play†and until you can it will continue to happen.
You can see from the extreme points of view on here it means different things to different people.
Some see it as purely a time issue, some as an etiquette awareness issue, etc
Wolf
Well-known member
That's kind of my point as to why I say it doesn't really exist. What you've hit the nail completely on the head.
Plus like I say how is it proposed clubs police it, it's an impossible task.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
I certainly believe clubs could help by being a bit more realistic about the time taken to play in a comp at weekends (probably the busiest time).
The time taken for a 4 Ball to play in a Ind Stroke comp or an Ind Stab comp will differ to a 4BBB or Texas Scramble etc and every 4 Ball will differ, yet some clubs print one set of timings on their scorecard.
Wolf
Well-known member
How do you enforce it though. I don't know of many clubs that send marshalls round to ensure groups haven't lost holes, members won't self police because they won't admit fault, as for printing times on a card that really doesn't mean anything, yes it's there as a guideline but nothing more is done to enforce it and nobody puts how long the round took down.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
It’s not about enforcing it as such, ie, if Clubs are realistic about timings it can be monitored over a period of time by asking members to put the time they finished their round on the card, once enough data is collected the “slow†players will stand out.
I don’t believe it’s a problem for all courses, but some seem worse than others.
A guy in our 4 Ball last sunday was complaining in the bar afterwards about a group 3 flights ahead of us holding everyone up and how slow it made us we were after we were stood waiting on at least 5 tees, the motocaddy app I use has a round timer on it and it had taken us 3hrs 13 minutes to get round, he wouldn’t have it, even though I proved it, yes it had felt slow, but even the “slow group†had gone round in less than 3hr 25mins and that was proved by the fact they were in the bar for the 4pm kick off and their tee time was 12:30.
Swinglowandslow
Well-known member
Every time there is a slow play thread, the same two factions become apparent. Fair enough, but it would be interesting to know the handicaps of those advocating faster play. I would imagine that most play off a low figure. Because it stands to reason that if you are good,and rarely going "off piste" ( with all the time that doing so involves),then what you encounter so often as slow play may be nothing more ( most of the time ) than less able players trying their incompetent best.
Years ago, Clubs didn't much entertain players other than members, or if they did they wanted those with handicaps not exceeding 18 or so.
I should imagine there was hardly any slow play.
Today, Clubs are seeking ( paying) feet on fairways, any standard of play allowed, competitions allowing very high handicap entries, and lots of Clubs' course slots are full during summer months etc.
If I were a low handicap player I think I would have to expect not being able to play each hole at the speed I was capable of. Under present day circumstances I am bound to be held up.
As a senior whose ability has been worn down by age, I now find myself too often playing too slowly , like a lot of seniors - and they make up a large percentage of golfers.
Slow play because of thoughtlessness is, and always has been , there, but I find it less by regular club members now than it was
But, for the reasons given above, slow play per se has increased over the years.
However,I can understand the frustration of young, working , and family men with limited time , finding their golf taking longer than their ability should dictate.
Years ago, Clubs didn't much entertain players other than members, or if they did they wanted those with handicaps not exceeding 18 or so.
I should imagine there was hardly any slow play.
Today, Clubs are seeking ( paying) feet on fairways, any standard of play allowed, competitions allowing very high handicap entries, and lots of Clubs' course slots are full during summer months etc.
If I were a low handicap player I think I would have to expect not being able to play each hole at the speed I was capable of. Under present day circumstances I am bound to be held up.
As a senior whose ability has been worn down by age, I now find myself too often playing too slowly , like a lot of seniors - and they make up a large percentage of golfers.
Slow play because of thoughtlessness is, and always has been , there, but I find it less by regular club members now than it was
But, for the reasons given above, slow play per se has increased over the years.
However,I can understand the frustration of young, working , and family men with limited time , finding their golf taking longer than their ability should dictate.
Wolf
Well-known member
I don't disagree with any of what you say there in fact all makes sense. The problem with then doing drawers based on speed of play it removes the option of everyone having fair chances at early or late tee times as per Bob's suggestions. Even if someone is found to be slow can you imagine the problems it would cause to then say they aren't allowed fair chance at an early tee off when they have paid their subs same as others.
I'm completely for keeping the game at a decent pace and open to ideas but also realistic about the real chance of it changing.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
Like I say it will be different at every Club, we don’t have any restrictions on people and when they can book, our approach is more to raise the individuals awareness and see if they themselves can help, ie, is it just ignorance to things like marking cards, positioning trollies, bimbling between shots etc, or they are not actually that slow and it’s a perception thing.
garyinderry
Ryder Cup Winner
Medal play may be a factor in bunging up courses. some eye opening stats from yesterdays medal.
1/4 of the field failed to break 100.
1/2 failed to break 90.
that doesn't include the 7 NRs.
Only 40 players so you can imagine what that would be like on a weekend with a packed course.
1/4 of the field failed to break 100.
1/2 failed to break 90.
that doesn't include the 7 NRs.
Only 40 players so you can imagine what that would be like on a weekend with a packed course.
Aussie Swinger
Newbie
Quote was “If a Reliant Robin, a Skoda Fabia and a Ferrari have to drive 4 hours along a one way single lane track, what order would you put them out in?†Unquote.
You have inadvertently answered a question you think has only one answer. You would put the Skoda(reliable car equating to steady player out first). You would put the Ferrari(fast, but liable to crash it mid way, equating to young flash lad with “all the gear and no idea†out second as he’s going to go OOB and Nr mid round. The Robin our last as it equates to old retired army officer officer who Like to be called by his title of ‘Major’, which over the years other members have morphed from ‘Major Chalfont-Bumstain’ to ‘Major Pain-in-arse’ as he would be of the “I’m never slow/do you know who I am/always done it like that here young laddie’ brigade. Simples.[/QUOTE]
You have inadvertently answered a question you think has only one answer. You would put the Skoda(reliable car equating to steady player out first). You would put the Ferrari(fast, but liable to crash it mid way, equating to young flash lad with “all the gear and no idea†out second as he’s going to go OOB and Nr mid round. The Robin our last as it equates to old retired army officer officer who Like to be called by his title of ‘Major’, which over the years other members have morphed from ‘Major Chalfont-Bumstain’ to ‘Major Pain-in-arse’ as he would be of the “I’m never slow/do you know who I am/always done it like that here young laddie’ brigade. Simples.[/QUOTE]
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
The familiar (valid) points raised here but they won’t ever resolve overall pace while we obsess on player actions. There’s a couple of nods on the thread to the other factors but really this thread should be merged with the others so that we stop being obsessed just on player pace, who may (sometimes correctly) mark his card on the green or a player who may (sometimes correctly) have his bag on the ‘wrong’ side of the green
Standing back on the tee it’s safe to say for the majority of the instances seen we probably have no clue why someone has their bag on the ‘opposite’ side to the exit.
If the exit is left and the player approaches from the right to a pin on the right and a ball that landed right. Don’t you dare faff about taking your bag to the left especially if you’re putting first. Drop your bag on the ‘wrong’ side and get playing and keep the flow going, its quicker! But all the guys behind see is a bag on the ‘wrong side’ & obsess about it. The same way folk obsess about a player marking a card on the green while someone else is holing out or putting the flag back in, its fine to mark on the green if they’re not delaying the groups exit from the green. But the players behind see it and obsess about it because someone at some point did hold up the group exit by marking in a huddle round the flag or leaving the bag in a worse spot. But it’s not the norm I see & this is not why some rounds take an hour longer than others
There absolutely is an obsession with player pace/behaviour but as I said we need to merge with recent threads like:
Send out a flight of mixed ability visitors (or new members) with a tee spacing that’s 2 minutes too short, with a few tough pins, on a breezy day, on a busy course, with rough that’s longer than usual & I wager they take an hour (and more) longer to get round than the group of experienced players 4 groups behind who expected to get round sharpish. So even if let through there's still a delay
Just because it’s your expectation to get round in xyz time does not mean it’s the expected pace of play for that day/field. And i''ll guess most clubs who do have a stated time just pick a round time based on a few of the variables above and leave it unchanged all season long, its lunacy and setting up the membership for disappointment
I know (like most of us I guess) that I can go round with a mate in sub 3 hours at the course local to me (and I know no one really thinks that should be the pace of play) but its not necessarily 3;30 either or 3;45 its usually set around 4;00- 4;10 on a busy day because pace of play is not about what any one group can do
Its not a case of adding 20 minutes to your personal quickest time and deeming that as the acceptable pace and obsessing when it isn't achieved
It just takes one or two of the variables to not be considered for that day and rounds of 4;30 plus will quickly follow
Standing back on the tee it’s safe to say for the majority of the instances seen we probably have no clue why someone has their bag on the ‘opposite’ side to the exit.
If the exit is left and the player approaches from the right to a pin on the right and a ball that landed right. Don’t you dare faff about taking your bag to the left especially if you’re putting first. Drop your bag on the ‘wrong’ side and get playing and keep the flow going, its quicker! But all the guys behind see is a bag on the ‘wrong side’ & obsess about it. The same way folk obsess about a player marking a card on the green while someone else is holing out or putting the flag back in, its fine to mark on the green if they’re not delaying the groups exit from the green. But the players behind see it and obsess about it because someone at some point did hold up the group exit by marking in a huddle round the flag or leaving the bag in a worse spot. But it’s not the norm I see & this is not why some rounds take an hour longer than others
There absolutely is an obsession with player pace/behaviour but as I said we need to merge with recent threads like:
- 1st Tee time spacing
- Length of Rough/course conditions
- Pin Positions
- Comp Formats
- Size of field
- General ability/standard of the players
- Course knowledge/experience
- Weather conditions
- Player behaviour and conduct
Send out a flight of mixed ability visitors (or new members) with a tee spacing that’s 2 minutes too short, with a few tough pins, on a breezy day, on a busy course, with rough that’s longer than usual & I wager they take an hour (and more) longer to get round than the group of experienced players 4 groups behind who expected to get round sharpish. So even if let through there's still a delay
Just because it’s your expectation to get round in xyz time does not mean it’s the expected pace of play for that day/field. And i''ll guess most clubs who do have a stated time just pick a round time based on a few of the variables above and leave it unchanged all season long, its lunacy and setting up the membership for disappointment
I know (like most of us I guess) that I can go round with a mate in sub 3 hours at the course local to me (and I know no one really thinks that should be the pace of play) but its not necessarily 3;30 either or 3;45 its usually set around 4;00- 4;10 on a busy day because pace of play is not about what any one group can do
Its not a case of adding 20 minutes to your personal quickest time and deeming that as the acceptable pace and obsessing when it isn't achieved
It just takes one or two of the variables to not be considered for that day and rounds of 4;30 plus will quickly follow
Captainron
Big Hitting, South African Sweary Person
I don’t care how long a round of golf takes as long as there is no needless waiting around for the folk in front.
The pro’s don’t think they are taking overly long because they mostly play at a similar pace.
The pro’s don’t think they are taking overly long because they mostly play at a similar pace.
jonny1409
Club Champion
This hits the nail on the head! Great post.
ScienceBoy
Money List Winner
Pace of play is a huge issue for the future of golf, we need to talk and discuss it more, not less.
the only people i ever see running on a golf course are the slow coaches who refuse to let people through when they have lost ground on the group in front trying to catch back up, rather than just let people through
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
Disagree. I think most players and most clubs recognise there is an issue. The problem is one of education and in my experiences it is those players that are already slow and cause a problem that either don't see themselves as the cause or accept responsibility and are therefore almost impossible to re-educate as to moving quicker, leaving bags in correct places, being ready to play. Until you can find a way at club level to change these attitudes on a regular basis you can talk about it as much as you want. It won't make a difference to the problem
D
Deleted member 3432
Guest
Pace of play won't speed up while the average age of the membership increases.
