No more Winter Rules.....

[Lord Tyrion]

@Slab expecting clubs to make a daily decision on this is expecting too much. The reality is that clubs will decide on a weekly or monthly basis. Monthly from now to April, reality of weather here, and weekly outside of those dates. Maybe the big clubs, with multiple full time staff will go daily. The rest don't have the time, or inclination I suspect, to do this daily.

 

[Bdill93]

Agreed, a very sensible rule change.

The farcical rule about having to take a penalty drop out of a flooded bunker should also be changed.

Just going back to this - I had honestly never heard of that before and flooded bunkers are pretty much the theme of our course through Winter, what is this rule?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

@Slab expecting clubs to make a daily decision on this is expecting too much. The reality is that clubs will decide on a weekly or monthly basis. Monthly from now to April, reality of weather here, and weekly outside of those dates. Maybe the big clubs, with multiple full time staff will go daily. The rest don't have the time, or inclination I suspect, to do this daily.

We make a judgment in regards if the course is qualifying or not

But to have PL on and off depending on the day will be farcical

But it’s typical of EG to not think things through

Most clubs will have PL during those winter months and then maybe have an extension early or late if weather is bad

 

[Slab]

@Slab expecting clubs to make a daily decision on this is expecting too much. The reality is that clubs will decide on a weekly or monthly basis. Monthly from now to April, reality of weather here, and weekly outside of those dates. Maybe the big clubs, with multiple full time staff will go daily. The rest don't have the time, or inclination I suspect, to do this daily.

I wouldn't disagree with you
Begs the question what this is all for then? Some half-way house to let clubs have continuous PL for 7 months plus add PL on any day/week/month out with those 7 months?

That doesn't read anything like the measures EG outlined, particularly with EG's repeated use of the word 'MUST remove' (their bold btw)

 

[wjemather]

Just going back to this - I had honestly never heard of that before and flooded bunkers are pretty much the theme of our course through Winter, what is this rule?

If a bunker is flooded with no complete relief possible, you can take maximum available relief within the bunker without penalty or take penalty relief outside.
However, MLR-F16 is available for clubs to use which allows specific bunkers to be marked/defined as GUR, allowing free relief.
If anyone's club is not using this MLR when bunkers are completely flooded, they should probably ask why.

 

[Bdill93]

If a bunker is flooded with no complete relief possible, you can take maximum available relief within the bunker without penalty or take penalty relief outside.
However, MLR-F16 is available for clubs to use which allows specific bunkers to be marked/defined as GUR, allowing free relief.
If anyone's club is not using this MLR when bunkers are completely flooded, they should probably ask why.

Unfortunately my club just don't mark anything as GUR, so penalties it will be!

Edit: One stroke I assume?

 

[wjemather]

Unfortunately my club just don't mark anything as GUR, so penalties it will be!

There is no requirement for the affected bunker(s) to be physically marked - they can be defined by location and a notice posted.

 

[Bdill93]

There is no requirement for the affected bunker(s) to be physically marked - they can be defined by location and a notice posted.

Again, never going to happen at our club unfortunately. A big down side to my club I know but that's why its so cheap!

 

[Springveldt]

Just going back to this - I had honestly never heard of that before and flooded bunkers are pretty much the theme of our course through Winter, what is this rule?

Mine puts blue stakes in them and classes them as GUR so you get a free drop at closest relief point no closer to the hole.

 

[Orikoru]

Didn't realise this was a rule @Orikoru that makes us all square through the match

Nonsense - there was ample room within the bunker for me to drop so I proceded correctly.

 

[Springveldt]

I wouldn't disagree with you
Begs the question what this is all for then? Some half-way house to let clubs have continuous PL for 7 months plus add PL on any day/week/month out with those 7 months?

That doesn't read anything like the measures EG outlined, particularly with EG's repeated use of the word 'MUST remove' (their bold btw)

I think that was probably the intention, just have your standard PL through the winter as normal but you can also define days during the spring/summer/autumn as well whenever you need it without having to get County approval.

As you say though, the wording does make it sound like it should be a day by day decision even through winter.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I wouldn't disagree with you
Begs the question what this is all for then? Some half-way house to let clubs have continuous PL for 7 months plus add PL on any day/week/month out with those 7 months?

That doesn't read anything like the measures EG outlined, particularly with EG's repeated use of the word 'MUST remove' (their bold btw)

My reading of it, with no inside knowledge so genuinely just how I see it, it that with courses having such a bad winter / spring last year it gives them the flexibility to do PL without badgering the County set ups. Just get on with it in effect. The previous system was rigid, ask permission, wait for an answer etc. This loosens the shackles for clubs, lets them make the decision themselves. Obviously, some may abuse it and the authorities may need to look again but it is worth trialling at least.

 

[Rlburnside]

Leaving PLs on all the time takes much of the skill out of the game.

I agree as stated before we have PLs all year and you can always get a better lie, it’s ingrained in me now I’m sure 40% of the time I don’t need to PLs.

 

[Orikoru]

Leaving PLs on all the time takes much of the skill out of the game.

Does it? Say someone only hits 40-50% of fairways, that might be 5 fairways in a round. A couple of those the lie will be fine so he doesn't move the ball, perhaps on two or three of them he does, because it's a little muddy under the ball, or his ball needs cleaning as there is mud on it. Is that really taking 'much of the skill out of the game'?

 

[doublebogey7]

@Springveldt quoted and agreed with @clubchamp98 earlier post that their clubs have just put PL in place for the period 1st Oct to May next year

England Golf say Clubs cannot do that anymore

"Model Local Rules
Golf clubs can utilise Model Local Rules throughout the year, but ONLY when it is absolutely necessary to do so, on specified areas of the course and when the conditions would mean that acceptable scoring would not be possible without them being in place. Furthermore, the Model Local Rules MUST be removed as soon as practicably possible. When implementing any of the Model Local Rules for your golfers, it must be clearly communicated and signposted which MLRs are in place and the areas in which they are to be used. It is very important to remember that Model Local Rules should only be used when absolutely necessary, to ensure equity within the World Handicap System™.'

So if the course conditions don't warrant PL at all in Nov, the MLR can't be used, but conditions do on 8th Dec then they don't again on 10th Dec then the PL must be applied and removed as conditions dictate. It can't be left in place over winter months

All that has changed is that clubs can now make there own decision in the period Oct-May, without reference to anyone else. It was always the case in and out of that period that clubs should only use PL when it was neccesary. Many clubs in the UK have seen alot of rain in the last few weeks and so PL is neccesary and will be for some considerable time unless we have an indian summer. However some links courses will not need it yet and many wil never have used PL for the whole pre-authorised period.

 

[clubchamp98]

@Springveldt quoted and agreed with @clubchamp98 earlier post that their clubs have just put PL in place for the period 1st Oct to May next year

England Golf say Clubs cannot do that anymore

"Model Local Rules
Golf clubs can utilise Model Local Rules throughout the year, but ONLY when it is absolutely necessary to do so, on specified areas of the course and when the conditions would mean that acceptable scoring would not be possible without them being in place. Furthermore, the Model Local Rules MUST be removed as soon as practicably possible. When implementing any of the Model Local Rules for your golfers, it must be clearly communicated and signposted which MLRs are in place and the areas in which they are to be used. It is very important to remember that Model Local Rules should only be used when absolutely necessary, to ensure equity within the World Handicap System™.'

So if the course conditions don't warrant PL at all in Nov, the MLR can't be used, but conditions do on 8th Dec then they don't again on 10th Dec then the PL must be applied and removed as conditions dictate. It can't be left in place over winter months

I understand what you’re saying.
But the club deemed they need PL atm and have chosen to .

Played today and after the rain Monday they were correct.
But can’t see them taking them off again anytime soon.

It’s up to the club and if we had three weeks without rain they might take them off.

 

[clubchamp98]

We make a judgment in regards if the course is qualifying or not

But to have PL on and off depending on the day will be farcical

But it’s typical of EG to not think things through

Most clubs will have PL during those winter months and then maybe have an extension early or late if weather is bad

Yes agree.
Imagine winning a comp and getting DQ because it’s not PL today that was yesterday sorry!

Weather and history will dictate the policy .
History tells us most parkland courses are wet in winter.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Yes agree.
Imagine winning a comp and getting DQ because it’s not PL today that was yesterday sorry!

Weather and history will dictate the policy .
History tells us most parkland courses are wet in winter.

I welcome this.
1st October to 31st May is winter for my course then.
But that is only very recent history.
It wasn't like that from 1974 to 2021.

 

[jim8flog]

We stopped having fixed dates years ago.

Been so wet here they came in yesterday.

Many years ago I got caught out because one Captain changed it to fixed dates and it changed to 'no winter rules' when we still needed them I had to work out the number of penalty stokes to add (34 in total) because none of the guys I was playing with told me until the 16th fairway despite seeing me lift clean and place on many an occasion.

We have had quite a few years when we have needed to extend in to May (with county permission) and a few years ago most counties gave carte blanche to do so.

 

[Slab]

I understand what you’re saying.
But the club deemed they need PL atm and have chosen to .

Played today and after the rain Monday they were correct.
But can’t see them taking them off again anytime soon.

It’s up to the club and if we had three weeks without rain they might take them off.

That's fine and it's good the club can deem today, tomorrow as PL, given the current weather (irrespective of the time of year)

All i've quoted is EG saying a club can't just apply PL on 1st October and set it to remain in force for the next 7 months regardless of course condition