New WHS

[wjemather]

Do you mean this reference to Scotland?

G6.2a
Committees and players should follow the advice of their National Association in the use of the integer or full calculated Course Handicap in the calculation of the Playing Handicap. For GB&I, England, Wales and Ireland will be using the Rounded Course Handicap, whilst Scotland will be using the full calculated Course Handicap.

No, the examples are in Appendix I Section IV (pp. 40-43). Basically, the rounding is only done at the end (to the resultant Playing Handicap), not to the individual player allowances that make up the calculation.

This makes sense, since two players with a CH of 5 playing foursomes should have a playing handicap of (2.5 + 2.5 =) 5, not a rounded-up (3 + 3 =) 6.

 

[rulefan]

No, the examples are in Appendix I Section IV (pp. 40-43). Basically, the rounding is only done at the end (to the resultant Playing Handicap), not to the individual player allowances that make up the calculation.

This makes sense, since two players with a CH of 5 playing foursomes should have a playing handicap of (2.5 + 2.5 =) 5, not a rounded-up (3 + 3 =) 6.

In the first table of Foursomes Liam's CH is an integer of 10 and Luke's is an integer of 27 (ie both rounded conventionally). It is only the 50% of that total that is unrounded.

 

[wjemather]

In the first table of Foursomes Liam's CH is an integer of 10 and Luke's is an integer of 27 (ie both rounded conventionally). It is only the 50% of that total that is unrounded.

Yes, CH are rounded as normal prior to any PH calculations (unrounded in Scotland). The key is that the allowances are not rounded until after they are added together, along with any mixed tee adjustments.

It's probably easier to see in the greensomes and scramble examples.

 

[apj0524]

Might not be the right thread to ask the question but we had our first Seniors Stableford in the week and there were 14 DQs because they only put their Playing handicap on the card not in the box on the card for Course Handicap. I know Rule 3.3b And CONGU advise clearly states the Course Handicap but my Question is should they have been DQ as the Playing Handicap is below the Course Handicap?

 

[rulefan]

Yes, CH are rounded as normal prior to any PH calculations (unrounded in Scotland). The key is that the allowances are not rounded until after they are added together, along with any mixed tee adjustments.

It's probably easier to see in the greensomes and scramble examples.

That's what wasn't clear from your original post. But all ok now.

 

[rulefan]

Might not be the right thread to ask the question but we had our first Seniors Stableford in the week and there were 14 DQs because they only put their Playing handicap on the card not in the box on the card for Course Handicap. I know Rule 3.3b And CONGU advise clearly states the Course Handicap but my Question is should they have been DQ as the Playing Handicap is below the Course Handicap?

Handicap on Scorecard Too Low. There is no penalty and the player’s net score stands using the lower handicap as shown.

 

[NearHull]

Handicap on Scorecard Too Low. There is no penalty and the player’s net score stands using the lower handicap as shown.

Does this effectively undermine disqualification for failing to put the CH on the card because the vast majority of PH‘s will be lower than the CH? If a competitor enters a card correctly but with only their PH (and lower than their CH) on the card it seems it is acceptable, but does it have to be in the right box or anywhere on the card?

 

[BubbaP]

Might not be the right thread to ask the question but we had our first Seniors Stableford in the week and there were 14 DQs because they only put their Playing handicap on the card not in the box on the card for Course Handicap. I know Rule 3.3b And CONGU advise clearly states the Course Handicap but my Question is should they have been DQ as the Playing Handicap is below the Course Handicap?

(From the information provided)
I bet the person dishing out the DQs was popular. Although I'm typically quite meticulous and an 'admin' person, this kind of thing IMO doesn't look good for golf.
Players ought to be judged on how they did hitting a ball, not how good they are at record keeping and admin. If there is a clear name, date, and accurate gross scores, we all know the computer is doing the rest (and it knows)

 

[Swango1980]

Does this effectively undermine disqualification for failing to put the CH on the card because the vast majority of PH‘s will be lower than the CH? If a competitor enters a card correctly but with only their PH (and lower than their CH) on the card it seems it is acceptable, but does it have to be in the right box or anywhere on the card?

I asked this months ago, and never really got an answer. The general response seemed to along the lines of "don't worry about it".

However, if a player only puts in a playing handicap, how many competition secretaries will both spot this, and then reduce their handicap for the comp? How do they do this? Is it simply in the software, or do they need to manipulate the Index to ensure the players course handicap equals their correct playing handicap, this making their actual playing handicap lower? If they do that, would this impact their correct score for handicapping at all?

If player only puts Playing Handicap in the Playing Handicap box, is it DQ for clearly not putting in Course Handicap? Apparently some say not, just assume the playing handicap is their course handicap, as course handicap does not need to be in correct box.

It all seems like a bit of a farce, where competition secretaries will have to use subjectivity to decide if the card follows the rules or not. We are being lenient at moment due to Covid, and the scorecard restrictions around that.

 

[NearHull]

I asked this months ago, and never really got an answer. The general response seemed to along the lines of "don't worry about it".

However, if a player only puts in a playing handicap, how many competition secretaries will both spot this, and then reduce their handicap for the comp? How do they do this? Is it simply in the software, or do they need to manipulate the Index to ensure the players course handicap equals their correct playing handicap, this making their actual playing handicap lower? If they do that, would this impact their correct score for handicapping at all?

If player only puts Playing Handicap in the Playing Handicap box, is it DQ for clearly not putting in Course Handicap? Apparently some say not, just assume the playing handicap is their course handicap, as course handicap does not need to be in correct box.

It all seems like a bit of a farce, where competition secretaries will have to use subjectivity to decide if the card follows the rules or not. We are being lenient at moment due to Covid, and the scorecard restrictions around that.

I’ve a friend who has just passed the first level of referees exams. I have asked him for his views - I expect a carefully crafted answer! I am also fortunate to have an international referee and EG advisor as a member. They are on holiday at the moment so I will ask on their return.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I have just this weekend played in my first two WHS counting comps. Both stableford we decided that we‘d only note the gross score for each hole - I did this on a card as I went round as I struggle seeing app on my phone due to glare. All of us noted gross for all players in the group - we did not note points. When we completed the round we cross-checked each other’s gross score - we did not bother working out stableford points or total - we let the system do that.

Both days I then entered my gross scores for the round on the clubhouse terminal. Nobody watched and i could have posted any score. No signed card required. Is there now this additional level of trust? I could see the results for the comps but these were stableford points totals and as mentioned we did not record points as we went round and so unless I kept the card I used for us all I have no way of knowing or checking back to see if the stableford totals were as I would have expected.

Or is it that in a stableford comp we MUST check stableford points at end of round - my understanding is that we don’t. In fact it recommended that we let the system do that working out.

 

[apj0524]

I’ve a friend who has just passed the first level of referees exams. I have asked him for his views - I expect a carefully crafted answer! I am also fortunate to have an international referee and EG advisor as a member. They are on holiday at the moment so I will ask on their return.

It would be great to hear their opinions.

Unfortunately I was unpopular one but the cards returned were mess and despite some latitude there was no Course Handicap on these cards.

It then go me thinking that unless a players handicap changes dramatically overnight if player just puts a handicap on the card that is the playing handicap it makes a farce of of CONGU guidance - To avoid a DQ under Rule 3.3b (4) of the Rules of Golf the player must put his/her Course Handicap on the scorecard (see Interpretation 3.3b (4)/1 of the Rules of Golf).

Because under rule 3.3b (4) - Handicap on Scorecard Too Low. There is no penalty and the player’s net score stands using the lower handicap as shown.

So if player just puts his Playing Handicap on the Card which clearly is not his Course Handicap its all good because at 95% for Singles its going to be Lower so OK

What's the point on insisting on the Course handicap !

 

[TerryA]

The software will hold your HI
You will input your gross score
The software will calculate your points for that competition - 95% of your Course Handicap
It will also update the England Golf database with your result overnight
The following day you can view the My England Golf App where you will see any change to your HI
Your club’s software will also be updated with the new HI

With regard to checking correct input:
Intell Golf haas the facility for you to upload a copy of your card
Club V1/Howdidido also has this facility but some clubs prefer you to leave the physical card in a box for the office to check input.

Hope this helps.

 

[Swango1980]

It would be great to hear their opinions.

Unfortunately I was unpopular one but the cards returned were mess and despite some latitude there was no Course Handicap on these cards.

It then go me thinking that unless a players handicap changes dramatically overnight if player just puts a handicap on the card that is the playing handicap it makes a farce of of CONGU guidance - To avoid a DQ under Rule 3.3b (4) of the Rules of Golf the player must put his/her Course Handicap on the scorecard (see Interpretation 3.3b (4)/1 of the Rules of Golf).

Because under rule 3.3b (4) - Handicap on Scorecard Too Low. There is no penalty and the player’s net score stands using the lower handicap as shown.

So if player just puts his Playing Handicap on the Card which clearly is not his Course Handicap its all good because at 95% for Singles its going to be Lower so OK

What's the point on insisting on the Course handicap !

However, remember, his score will need to be reduced (unless PH=CH). So, the computer will incorrectly work out his score (as it will do so based on the correct course handicap). If you assume the playing handicap on his card is his course handicap, then you'd have to reduce his playing handicap on the computer to reflect that. Which is all a bit of a mess.

 

[jim8flog]

Or is it that in a stableford comp we MUST check stableford points at end of round - my understanding is that we don’t. In fact it recommended that we let the system do that working out.

I have a lot of minor disagreements with players who do not want to bother checking gross scores and only the Stableford points as a total. For scoring the only thing you are responsible for is the gross score on each hole.

 

[jim8flog]

It would be great to hear their opinions.

Unfortunately I was unpopular one but the cards returned were mess and despite some latitude there was no Course Handicap on these cards.

It then go me thinking that unless a players handicap changes dramatically overnight if player just puts a handicap on the card that is the playing handicap it makes a farce of of CONGU guidance - To avoid a DQ under Rule 3.3b (4) of the Rules of Golf the player must put his/her Course Handicap on the scorecard (see Interpretation 3.3b (4)/1 of the Rules of Golf).

Because under rule 3.3b (4) - Handicap on Scorecard Too Low. There is no penalty and the player’s net score stands using the lower handicap as shown.

So if player just puts his Playing Handicap on the Card which clearly is not his Course Handicap its all good because at 95% for Singles its going to be Lower so OK

What's the point on insisting on the Course handicap !

Two things though is that a player is nor required to put their Playing Handicap on a card and the handicap does not have to be in the correct box so if there is only one handicap on the card I am assuming that tis must be treated as the course handicap (based upon pre WHS interpretations)

3.3b/2 – Information Put in Wrong Location on Scorecard May Still Be Acceptable

Although all requirements of Rule 3.3b must be met before a scorecard is returned, there is no penalty if the correct information is mistakenly entered on the scorecard in a place other than where it was expected to be, except that each hole score on the scorecard must be identifiable to the correct hole (see 3.3b(3)/1).


RE The question interpretation on the rules is pretty clear.

3.3b(4)/1 – Meaning of “Handicap” Player Must Show on Scorecard

In net-score stroke-play competitions, it is the player’s responsibility to ensure that his or her handicap s shown on the scorecard. “Handicap” means the handicap for the course and tees being played, excluding any handicap allowances as set out within the Terms of the Competition. The Committee is responsible for applying any handicap allowances and adjustments.

 

[Swango1980]

Two things though is that a player is nor required to put their Playing Handicap on a card and the handicap does not have to be in the correct box so if there is only one handicap on the card I am assuming that tis must be treated as the course handicap (based upon pre WHS interpretations)

3.3b/2 – Information Put in Wrong Location on Scorecard May Still Be Acceptable

Although all requirements of Rule 3.3b must be met before a scorecard is returned, there is no penalty if the correct information is mistakenly entered on the scorecard in a place other than where it was expected to be, except that each hole score on the scorecard must be identifiable to the correct hole (see 3.3b(3)/1).


RE The question interpretation on the rules is pretty clear.

3.3b(4)/1 – Meaning of “Handicap” Player Must Show on Scorecard

In net-score stroke-play competitions, it is the player’s responsibility to ensure that his or her handicap s shown on the scorecard. “Handicap” means the handicap for the course and tees being played, excluding any handicap allowances as set out within the Terms of the Competition. The Committee is responsible for applying any handicap allowances and adjustments.

I am waiting for the occasion where a player puts in their Playing Handicap only (say a PH of 18, Course Handicap of 19). As it is in PH box, and clearly the correct PH, it seems like a big stretch for the Committee to assume they thought it was their course handicap, got it wrong and put it in the wrong box.

However, let us say that the Committee give them that get out of jail card. Imagine the player won the competition on countback, because the computer will use the correct numbers (course handicap 19, playing handicap 18). The player is over the moon, because they never thought they were putting in CH, they knew all along it was their PH as the software told them when they signed in. Somehow, the Committee need to spot this, and then somehow they have to manipulate his handicap on the computer so his CH is actually 18 and PH is thus 17. Technically, I am not sure if this is easy to do in the software? But if it is, the player no longer wins the competition.

Now, I'm not feeling sorry for the player, rules are rules I suppose. But it is all a bit of a confusing mess. Some committees will DQ the player, because in their opinion the player did NOT put Course Handicap anywhere on card. Other committees will not DQ player, but reduce handicap (if they can) so the player gets less points. And I am sure other committees will ignore the omission completely on the card and just let accept the computer working out the score based on the correct course / playing handicaps.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I asked this months ago, and never really got an answer. The general response seemed to along the lines of "don't worry about it".

However, if a player only puts in a playing handicap, how many competition secretaries will both spot this, and then reduce their handicap for the comp? How do they do this? Is it simply in the software, or do they need to manipulate the Index to ensure the players course handicap equals their correct playing handicap, this making their actual playing handicap lower? If they do that, would this impact their correct score for handicapping at all?

If player only puts Playing Handicap in the Playing Handicap box, is it DQ for clearly not putting in Course Handicap? Apparently some say not, just assume the playing handicap is their course handicap, as course handicap does not need to be in correct box.

It all seems like a bit of a farce, where competition secretaries will have to use subjectivity to decide if the card follows the rules or not. We are being lenient at moment due to Covid, and the scorecard restrictions around that.

And if - for a preentered comp - I don’t submit a card but do no more than enter my gross score for each hole on a terminal...? Where does writing my CH on my card (or not) fit in - unless we are talking additional rounds outside of a club comp.

 

[wjemather]

I have just this weekend played in my first two WHS counting comps. Both stableford we decided that we‘d only note the gross score for each hole - I did this on a card as I went round as I struggle seeing app on my phone due to glare. All of us noted gross for all players in the group - we did not note points. When we completed the round we cross-checked each other’s gross score - we did not bother working out stableford points or total - we let the system do that.

Both days I then entered my gross scores for the round on the clubhouse terminal. Nobody watched and i could have posted any score. No signed card required. Is there now this additional level of trust? I could see the results for the comps but these were stableford points totals and as mentioned we did not record points as we went round and so unless I kept the card I used for us all I have no way of knowing or checking back to see if the stableford totals were as I would have expected.

Or is it that in a stableford comp we MUST check stableford points at end of round - my understanding is that we don’t. In fact it recommended that we let the system do that working out.

Per CONGU's guidance during COVID, clubs should have a process in place for verification of scores in the absence of physical scorecards, even if it is just verbal confirmation. Seems your club may be overlooking this step.

 

[wjemather]

I am waiting for the occasion where a player puts in their Playing Handicap only (say a PH of 18, Course Handicap of 19). As it is in PH box, and clearly the correct PH, it seems like a big stretch for the Committee to assume they thought it was their course handicap, got it wrong and put it in the wrong box.

However, let us say that the Committee give them that get out of jail card. Imagine the player won the competition on countback, because the computer will use the correct numbers (course handicap 19, playing handicap 18). The player is over the moon, because they never thought they were putting in CH, they knew all along it was their PH as the software told them when they signed in. Somehow, the Committee need to spot this, and then somehow they have to manipulate his handicap on the computer so his CH is actually 18 and PH is thus 17. Technically, I am not sure if this is easy to do in the software? But if it is, the player no longer wins the competition.

Now, I'm not feeling sorry for the player, rules are rules I suppose. But it is all a bit of a confusing mess. Some committees will DQ the player, because in their opinion the player did NOT put Course Handicap anywhere on card. Other committees will not DQ player, but reduce handicap (if they can) so the player gets less points. And I am sure other committees will ignore the omission completely on the card and just let accept the computer working out the score based on the correct course / playing handicaps.

It would be nice if ClubV1 even had the necessary DQ options, let alone the ability to adjust playing handicap per the rules.