New WHS

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

My experience is similar to SILH so whilst you are waiting for his reply I'll jump in. On Saturday I played in a 3 ball. One person marked one card for all 3 of us. When we finished one person then entered all 3 scores via the terminal, binned the card, actually I took it home and put it in the recycling bin. After entering the scores I wiped the screen ready for the next person. There is always a pack of wipes next to the screen.

We have been doing it like this since day 1 of all this, back last year. It's worked well.

Difference in my context is that two of my four ball entered their scores in the app during the round and two of us recorded all four scores on a card. The two of us doing the latter individually entered our scores using the terminal and we did not ‘witness’ each other doing it.

 

[Old Skier]

Difference in my context is that two of my four ball entered their scores in the app during the round and two of us recorded all four scores on a card. The two of us doing the latter individually entered our scores using the terminal and we did not ‘witness’ each other doing it.

Simple solution, marker enters players score on PSI.

 

[rosecott]

Simple solution, marker enters players score on PSI.

And what happens if he gets it wrong and falls foul of 3.3b.

 

[NearHull]

My friend’s (recently passed his first referee exam) view of putting the lower PH on the card instead of CH.

Rule 3.3b(4) - Scoring in Handicap Competition. The player is responsible for making sure that his or her handicap is shown on the scorecard. If the player returns a scorecard without the right handicap:

• Handicap on Scorecard Too High or No Handicap Shown. If this affects the number of strokes the player gets, the player is disqualified from the handicap competition. If it does not, there is no penalty.
• Handicap on Scorecard Too Low. There is no penalty and the player’s net score stands using the lower handicap as shown.

this rule also has an interpretation in the official guide to the rules

3.3b(4)/interpretation 1

Meaning of “Handicap” Player Must Show on Scorecard
In net-score stroke-play competitions, it is the player's responsibility to ensure that his or her handicap is shown on the scorecard. "Handicap" means the handicap for the course and tees being played, excluding any handicap allowances as set out within the Terms of the Competition. The Committee is responsible for applying any handicap allowances and adjustments.
[Clarification available:

and this month the R&A have issued a clarification to the interpretation in their quarterly update:

Rule 3:
Rule 3.3b(4):
1. Interpretation 3.3b(4)/1 – National Association May Establish Meaning of “Handicap” Player Must Show on Scorecard
Until further notice, a National Association (Authorized Association as defined in the Rules of Handicapping) may adopt a policy that establishes the handicap that players must show on their scorecard in a net-score stroke play competition. This handicap does not have to be the handicap described in Interpretation 3.3b(4)/1, which is the Course Handicap (as defined in the Rules of Handicapping). The options for the National Association are the Handicap Index, the Course Handicap or the Playing Handicap. If no policy is adopted by the National Association, the Course Handicap is the handicap the player must show on the scorecard, in accordance with Interpretation 3.3b(4)/1. (Added 4/2021)

Back to you to see if our National Association has made such policy.

If they haven’t made a policy then the default requirement for the player as per the rules of golf is to quote the course handicap. However, see interpretation 2 for 3.3b below.


3.3b/2
Information Put in Wrong Location on Scorecard May Still Be Acceptable
Although all requirements of Rule 3.3b must be met before a scorecard is returned, there is no penalty if the correct information is mistakenly entered on the scorecard in a place other than where it was expected to be, except that each hole score on the scorecard must be identifiable to the correct hole (see 3.3b(3)/1).
For example:

• If the player and marker certify the hole scores in the location where the other was meant to certify, the player's scores have been certified as required under Rule 3.3b. The same would be true if initials were used to certify, rather than the full name.
• If the player's scores are recorded on the marker's scorecard and the marker'son the player's, but the scores are correct and both scorecards are certified, the scorecards are acceptable so long as the players tell the Committeewhich scorecard belongs to which player. As the nature of this mistake is administrative, there is no time limit on making such a correction (see 20.2d/1).

Could the player claim that the entry of the playing handicap on the card in your scenario was intended to be his course handicap (which he showed as lower than should have been) and that he put it in the wrong place on the card and therefore he avoids DQ because of handicap on card too low and interpretation? If this is accepted then the playing allowance would be applied to the number quoted on the card.

 

[Old Skier]

And what happens if he gets it wrong and falls foul of 3.3b.

Not with you, please clarify.

 

[rulefan]

Could the player claim that the entry of the playing handicap on the card in your scenario was intended to be his course handicap

Only if he really thought it was his course handicap. If he didn't, he would have lied to the committee.
But having done a calculation of 95% why would he think the result was his CH?

 

[Old Skier]

But having done a calculation of 95% why would he think the result was his CH?

Possibly because they haven’t read through 168 pages at, in some cases, could be identified as conflicting rules/advice.

 

[apj0524]

My friend’s (recently passed his first referee exam) view of putting the lower PH on the card instead of CH.

Rule 3.3b(4) - Scoring in Handicap Competition. The player is responsible for making sure that his or her handicap is shown on the scorecard. If the player returns a scorecard without the right handicap:

• Handicap on Scorecard Too High or No Handicap Shown. If this affects the number of strokes the player gets, the player is disqualified from the handicap competition. If it does not, there is no penalty.
• Handicap on Scorecard Too Low. There is no penalty and the player’s net score stands using the lower handicap as shown.

this rule also has an interpretation in the official guide to the rules

3.3b(4)/interpretation 1

Meaning of “Handicap” Player Must Show on Scorecard
In net-score stroke-play competitions, it is the player's responsibility to ensure that his or her handicap is shown on the scorecard. "Handicap" means the handicap for the course and tees being played, excluding any handicap allowances as set out within the Terms of the Competition. The Committee is responsible for applying any handicap allowances and adjustments.
[Clarification available:

and this month the R&A have issued a clarification to the interpretation in their quarterly update:

Rule 3:
Rule 3.3b(4):
1. Interpretation 3.3b(4)/1 – National Association May Establish Meaning of “Handicap” Player Must Show on Scorecard
Until further notice, a National Association (Authorized Association as defined in the Rules of Handicapping) may adopt a policy that establishes the handicap that players must show on their scorecard in a net-score stroke play competition. This handicap does not have to be the handicap described in Interpretation 3.3b(4)/1, which is the Course Handicap (as defined in the Rules of Handicapping). The options for the National Association are the Handicap Index, the Course Handicap or the Playing Handicap. If no policy is adopted by the National Association, the Course Handicap is the handicap the player must show on the scorecard, in accordance with Interpretation 3.3b(4)/1. (Added 4/2021)

Back to you to see if our National Association has made such policy.

If they haven’t made a policy then the default requirement for the player as per the rules of golf is to quote the course handicap. However, see interpretation 2 for 3.3b below.


3.3b/2
Information Put in Wrong Location on Scorecard May Still Be Acceptable
Although all requirements of Rule 3.3b must be met before a scorecard is returned, there is no penalty if the correct information is mistakenly entered on the scorecard in a place other than where it was expected to be, except that each hole score on the scorecard must be identifiable to the correct hole (see 3.3b(3)/1).
For example:

• If the player and marker certify the hole scores in the location where the other was meant to certify, the player's scores have been certified as required under Rule 3.3b. The same would be true if initials were used to certify, rather than the full name.
• If the player's scores are recorded on the marker's scorecard and the marker's on the player's, but the scores are correct and both scorecards are certified, the scorecards are acceptable so long as the players tell the Committee which scorecard belongs to which player. As the nature of this mistake is administrative, there is no time limit on making such a correction (see 20.2d/1).

Could the player claim that the entry of the playing handicap on the card in your scenario was intended to be his course handicap (which he showed as lower than should have been) and that he put it in the wrong place on the card and therefore he avoids DQ because of handicap on card too low and interpretation? If this is accepted then the playing allowance would be applied to the number quoted on the card.

Thank you taking the time to speak with your friend who is a referee and writing this up

As much as I had sense of guilt Disqualifying so many players, in hindsight after weeks of communication and helping members it was going to happen sooner or later because many would just not educate themselves and seemed to have an view:

1) Rules do not apply to them
2) The do not want embrace the technology that allows them to enter there own score in which case the the issue goes away
3) That that the M&H team would accept what they put on the card and if its wrong correct it.

As volunteer at the club who has a full time job and family I have not got the time to correct the card by accepting what is on the card is their course handicap and make adjustments to their scores accordingly 14 times

Coincidently in the competition on Saturday that I entered the scores for, had 0ver 100 entrants, many of which played in the earlier competition, not one DQ for the wrong handicap

 

[Old Skier]

Thank you taking the time to speak with your friend who is a referee and writing this up

As much as I had sense of guilt Disqualifying so many players, in hindsight after weeks of communication and helping members it was going to happen sooner or later because many would just not educate themselves and seemed to have an view:

1) Rules do not apply to them
2) The do not want embrace the technology that allows them to enter there own score in which case the the issue goes away
3) That that the M&H team would accept what they put on the card and if its wrong correct it.

As volunteer at the club who has a full time job and family I have not got the time to correct the card by accepting what is on the card is their course handicap and make adjustments to their scores accordingly 14 times

Coincidently in the competition on Saturday that I entered the scores for, had 0ver 100 entrants, many of which played in the earlier competition, not one DQ for the wrong handicap

Have you not opened up your PSI yet?

 

[rosecott]

Not with you, please clarify.

What I meant was that the player is responsible for his score. If someone else returns his score and manages to record a score lower than that taken, the player can be DQ'd for someone else's error.

 

[Old Skier]

What I meant was that the player is responsible for his score. If someone else returns his score and manages to record a score lower than that taken, the player can be DQ'd for someone else's error.

Player acknowledges score prior to entry. No different to me standing by the PSI and entering others scores really.

 

[apj0524]

Have you not opened up your PSI yet?

No the Council and Club general manager are super cautious and worried about members not abiding by the 2M rule by the PSI Terminals, so its still via the IG App (very low take up) or the committee entering the cards, very frustrating to be honest.

I looked on the EG site for their guidance on using PSI terminals that I could present to the club GM bit could not find anything, if someone could help me with this that would be great.

 

[Old Skier]

No the Council and Club general manager are super cautious and worried about members not abiding by the 2M rule by the PSI Terminals, so its still via the IG App (very low take up) or the committee entering the cards, very frustrating to be honest.

I looked on the EG site for their guidance on using PSI terminals that I could present to the club GM bit could not find anything, if someone could help me with this that would be great.

All clubs were emailed by EG stating that PSI could now be used providing adequate precautions and sanitiser was in place.

 

[jim8flog]

No the Council and Club general manager are super cautious and worried about members not abiding by the 2M rule by the PSI Terminals, so its still via the IG App (very low take up) or the committee entering the cards, very frustrating to be honest.

I looked on the EG site for their guidance on using PSI terminals that I could present to the club GM bit could not find anything, if someone could help me with this that would be great.

• Player Score Input (PSI) screens may be used where players can sanitise or wash hands before and after use

From
https://www.englandgolf.org/download/a-framework-for-playing-golf/

 

[AmandaJR]

This week I've played with a few different Ladies and the comments about the new WHS are all similar so the ones that know have been making sure everyone knows

Basically "our handicaps are going to go up and down and up and down so often it will take some getting used to". I've suggested I don't think this will happen due to the nature of averages and smoothing but am I right? Not even got into mentioning hard and soft caps!

 

[Old Skier]

This week I've played with a few different Ladies and the comments about the new WHS are all similar so the ones that know have been making sure everyone knows

Basically "our handicaps are going to go up and down and up and down so often it will take some getting used to". I've suggested I don't think this will happen due to the nature of averages and smoothing but am I right? Not even got into mentioning hard and soft caps!

I think you might see a little st the beginning especially for those without the necessary cards in but once things settle i can't see much movement under normal circumstances outside the parameters set within the slope.

 

[apj0524]

• Player Score Input (PSI) screens may be used where players can sanitise or wash hands before and after use

From
https://www.englandgolf.org/download/a-framework-for-playing-golf/

Thank you for this

 

[jim8flog]

This week I've played with a few different Ladies and the comments about the new WHS are all similar so the ones that know have been making sure everyone knows

Basically "our handicaps are going to go up and down and up and down so often it will take some getting used to". I've suggested I don't think this will happen due to the nature of averages and smoothing but am I right? Not even got into mentioning hard and soft caps!

Worth remembering that soft and hard caps only apply to a player with 20 scores on their record.

Players with less than 16 on theirs could well see it jumping about a bit,

 

[rulefan]

This week I've played with a few different Ladies and the comments about the new WHS are all similar so the ones that know have been making sure everyone knows

Basically "our handicaps are going to go up and down and up and down so often it will take some getting used to". I've suggested I don't think this will happen due to the nature of averages and smoothing but am I right? Not even got into mentioning hard and soft caps!

As mentioned it may have that effect for players with only a few scores but generally although a player's Handicap Index may change it is far less likely to change their Course Handicap on their 'normal' course as CH covers a range of HIs.

 

[AmandaJR]

As mentioned it may have that effect for players with only a few scores but generally although a player's Handicap Index may change it is far less likely to change their Course Handicap on their 'normal' course as CH covers a range of HIs.

Now that makes sense and something I'll counter with next time.