New H/C (54) Comp Changes

[Deleted member 16999]

Exactly this, I'm glad someone gets the point I'm trying to make.

Plenty get your point Karen, what about the rest of his post? Maybe you have to go through that mindset for one round. You’ll know that risk if you decide to enter the comp.

 

[Jimaroid]

The simple fact is that there comes a point where the game mechanics simply fail to function. All games (sports are all competitive games) require constraints to act as a challenge. Strategising within the constraints to meet the challenge is what we find fun. If you make the constraints so wide that there is no strategy, the challenge and fun is gone.

Extremely high handicap differences break the minimum constraints of the game of golf in my opinion. The absolute minimum constraint in the game is a hole in one. It is not possible to do any better. So when the rules extend to needing to do better than a hole in one I'd say the mechanics of the game are broken; there's no challenge, no strategy and no fun.

I'm not snobby about high handicaps but I do think they're a failure of game design.

 

[Orikoru]

Here we go, I'm not going mad..

New alternative form of stroke play
Current rule: In standard individual stroke play, players must hole out at every hole; the only recognized alternative forms of stroke play where holing out is not required are Stableford, Par and Bogey.
New rule: A new "Maximum Score" form of stroke play is recognized, where a player’s score for a hole is capped at a maximum score (such as double par or triple bogey) that is set by the Committee.

Great idea!!!! We'll all be spared those nightmare scores!

The simple fact is that there comes a point where the game mechanics simply fail to function. All games (sports are all competitive games) require constraints to act as a challenge. Strategising within the constraints to meet the challenge is what we find fun. If you make the constraints so wide that there is no strategy, the challenge and fun is gone.

Extremely high handicap differences break the minimum constraints of the game of golf in my opinion. The absolute minimum constraint in the game is a hole in one. It is not possible to do any better. So when the rules extend to needing to do better than a hole in one I'd say the mechanics of the game are broken; there's no challenge, no strategy and no fun.

I'm not snobby about high handicaps but I do think they're a failure of game design.

Agree with that. I think that backs up what FairwayDodger is saying to an extent. If you're giving three shots to someone, and they make bogey on a par 3, you need a hole in one to tie it or a hole in zero to win...

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Agree with that. I think that backs up what FairwayDodger is saying to an extent. If you're giving three shots to someone, and they make bogey on a par 3, you need a hole in one to tie it or a hole in zero to win...

There are certain holes you can not win, unless an opponent mucks up on for sure but they are likely to.

The game is 18 holes not one par 3, that a high handicapper gets a par on. I believe that if I went round in par par par and so on, that will put pressure on my opponent. I also laugh when things go wrong a lot and love to see someone shots the lights out, even if that means I take a pasting.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Hmm... comes across as a tad patronising

Certainly wasn't what I meant it to read like that or even meant like that. I am not on here to wind up or upset people, so sorry about that.

All the best:thup:

 

[FairwayDodger]

Plenty get your point Karen, what about the rest of his post? Maybe you have to go through that mindset for one round. You’ll know that risk if you decide to enter the comp.

Do you mean the assumption that you wouldn’t be in this situation very often? I don’t actually think that’s true but it’s tangential to the main point so didn’t want to get bogged down arguing about it.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Certainly wasn't what I meant it to read like that or even meant like that. I am not on here to wind up or upset people, so sorry about that.

All the best:thup:

No worries!

 

[FairwayDodger]

The simple fact is that there comes a point where the game mechanics simply fail to function. All games (sports are all competitive games) require constraints to act as a challenge. Strategising within the constraints to meet the challenge is what we find fun. If you make the constraints so wide that there is no strategy, the challenge and fun is gone.

Extremely high handicap differences break the minimum constraints of the game of golf in my opinion. The absolute minimum constraint in the game is a hole in one. It is not possible to do any better. So when the rules extend to needing to do better than a hole in one I'd say the mechanics of the game are broken; there's no challenge, no strategy and no fun.

I'm not snobby about high handicaps but I do think they're a failure of game design.

Very well put, Jim!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Can understand the point Karen is making in regards playing a very high HC it’s not a “competitive game” as such - it must become hard trying to think about your game when so many shots are given away - I suspect it will happen more than often during a ladies match as there will be a lot more High HC. I suspect there isn’t much that can be done and it’s more a mental battle. I don’t play HC matchplay anymore especially during the shorter winter course months

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Do you mean the assumption that you wouldn’t be in this situation very often? I don’t actually think that’s true but it’s tangential to the main point so didn’t want to get bogged down arguing about it.

I just believe a golfer with your ability and at your level would have no difficulty beating a 54 handicapper under any circumstances and sometimes the focus is on the negative aspect of something new coming in rather than the positive.

 

[Orikoru]

I just believe a golfer with your ability and at your level would have no difficulty beating a 54 handicapper under any circumstances and sometimes the focus is on the negative aspect of something new coming in rather than the positive.

Why do you keep saying that? She's made it clear she isn't concerned about not being able to win, she's concerned about the uncompetitive nature of the match.

 

[Nickrat]

How would people feel about 3 divisions 0-12 13-20 20+?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Why do you keep saying that? She's made it clear she isn't concerned about not being able to win, she's concerned about the uncompetitive nature of the match.

I know what she’s on about! Only she can decide if she wishes to enter a matchplay comp with no upper limit and except the fact that if she does and she is drawn against a 54 handicapper, that tie will be uncompetitive.
If she enters the comp then I would imagine she has the desire to do well in said comp, ie WIN

 

[patricks148]

My only real concern with this is that it will further discourage low handicappers from entering the matchplay. The author of this article addresses it but totally misses the point. He has never in his life given anyone 30+ shots in a match, never mind the 50+ that will now be possible. Contrary to what he says, this is not about winning or losing. It's about wanting to have a sensible competitive match and giving that many strokes makes it a farce, it's about playing a match in which the low handicappers performance has any bearing on the result.

Medals - fine. Bounce games - no problems. Match play - what's the point?

Karen, Do they not seed the draws in the Matchplays at your club?

i can understand it would be sole destroying to be giving that many shots. Like you say many guys won't ever experience giving 30 or more shots, those i suppose in future they may.

Ours a seeded so you are usually not giving many shots in the first few rounds, though i have given 23 before and had to question his handicap when he gross pared the fist, bogeyed the 2nd and pared the 3rd to be 3 up after 3.

 

[ScienceBoy]

A 54 handicap is only taking average 7ish shots a hole to play to their handicap.

As long as they don’t use those shots to hack in and out of the trees all is fine. If it takes you four to make a par four green but keep it in the short stuff then I’m pretty sure your not going to be slow.

 

[jim8flog]

Here we go, I'm not going mad..

New alternative form of stroke play
Current rule: In standard individual stroke play, players must hole out at every hole; the only recognized alternative forms of stroke play where holing out is not required are Stableford, Par and Bogey.
New rule: A new "Maximum Score" form of stroke play is recognized, where a player’s score for a hole is capped at a maximum score (such as double par or triple bogey) that is set by the Committee.

Where does that come from?

A lot of ideas were considered for the 2019 rules changes but were discarded. So does that come from the original 'ideas' document.

Another idea that was discarded was the dropping the ball at the nearest point on the course (under penalty) to the point where the ball went OB to save walking back.

 

[Twire]

Where does that come from?

A lot of ideas were considered for the 2019 rules changes but were discarded. So does that come from the original 'ideas' document.

Another idea that was discarded was the dropping the ball at the nearest point on the course (under penalty) to the point where the ball went OB to save walking back.

R&A website, full draft rules 2019, rule 21.2 page 113

21.2 Maximum Score
a. Overview of Maximum Score
Maximum Score is a form of stroke play where a player’s or side’s score for a hole is capped at a maximum number of strokes set by the Committee, such as two times par, a fixed number (6, 8, 10, etc.) or net double bogey.
The normal Rules for stroke play in Rules 1-20 apply, but as modified by these specific Rules. Rule 21.2 is written
ï‚· For gross-score competitions, but can be adapted for net-score competitions as well, and
ï‚· For individual play, but can be adapted for competitions involving partners (Foursomes, Threesomes, Four-Ball and Best-Ball), as modified by Rules 22-23, and for team competitions, as modified by Rule 24.
b. Scoring in Maximum Score
(1) Player’s Score on Hole. A player’s score for a hole is based on the number of strokes actually taken (including penalty strokes), except that the player will get only the maximum score even if the actual number of strokes exceeds the maximum.
A player who does not hole out correctly under the Rules for any reason gets the maximum score for the hole.
To help pace of play, players are encouraged to stop playing a hole when their score has reached the maximum.

 

[HankMarvin]

R&A website, full draft rules 2019, rule 21.2 page 113

21.2 Maximum Score
a. Overview of Maximum Score
Maximum Score is a form of stroke play where a player’s or side’s score for a hole is capped at a maximum number of strokes set by the Committee, such as two times par, a fixed number (6, 8, 10, etc.) or net double bogey.
The normal Rules for stroke play in Rules 1-20 apply, but as modified by these specific Rules. Rule 21.2 is written
ï‚· For gross-score competitions, but can be adapted for net-score competitions as well, and
ï‚· For individual play, but can be adapted for competitions involving partners (Foursomes, Threesomes, Four-Ball and Best-Ball), as modified by Rules 22-23, and for team competitions, as modified by Rule 24.
b. Scoring in Maximum Score
(1) Player’s Score on Hole. A player’s score for a hole is based on the number of strokes actually taken (including penalty strokes), except that the player will get only the maximum score even if the actual number of strokes exceeds the maximum.
A player who does not hole out correctly under the Rules for any reason gets the maximum score for the hole.
To help pace of play, players are encouraged to stop playing a hole when their score has reached the maximum.

Not convinced this will help reduce slow play given that a 54 handicap will be able to hit 7 shots on a par 3 for a point 8 shots on a par 4 and 9 shots on a par 5, all seems to be leading up to slow play if these guys exist and grace our fairways

 

[HomerJSimpson]

A 54 handicap is only taking average 7ish shots a hole to play to their handicap.

As long as they don’t use those shots to hack in and out of the trees all is fine. If it takes you four to make a par four green but keep it in the short stuff then I’m pretty sure your not going to be slow.

I get the logic but a 54 isn't going to keep it on the straight stuff. That's why they have the handicap they do. It's getting in and out of trouble that'll waste shots and slow the group down. I like the R&A draft proposals