Foxholer
Blackballed
Where would we be without Colin's diagrams! :cheers:
Nearest point of relief
- Thread starter woody69
- Start date
rulefan
Tour Winner
I wasn't commenting on any particular post - just an observation.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Colin L
Tour Winner
Careful! The ball must first strike the ground not nearer the hole than the NPR. The NPR cannot be nearer the hole than the original position of the ball. Therefore, the ball must strike the ground (the "position of the drop") not nearer the hole than either NPR or original position.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Deleted
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Thanks to Foxholer and Colin for correcting me. Diagram is helpful.
Faulty logic and geometry on my part!
Faulty logic and geometry on my part!
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Foxholer
Blackballed
True. I read more into the comment than was intended. 'Drop' was t.he key word. I withdraw my comment (and apologise). Reversing it wouldn't achieve much after all!
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
Strike an arc from the pin to the position the ball lies. The NPOR lies on this arc at the nearest position you can make a stance and drop the ball clearing the obstruction, no nearer the pin. It's not the nicest point of relief.
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Colin L
Tour Winner
I'm afraid that's not the case. The NPR may well not lie on that arc, depending on the shape of what you are taking relief from and on the position of the ball relative to it.
I just can't help it and probably need counselling, but I feel another diagram coming on.
According to what you said, the NPR from the grey area would be at A (for a right handed golfer) when in fact it would be as shown in red.
I just can't help it and probably need counselling, but I feel another diagram coming on.
According to what you said, the NPR from the grey area would be at A (for a right handed golfer) when in fact it would be as shown in red.
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Foxholer
Blackballed
Indeed. That arc only creates the 'not nearer the pin' boundary.
If you really want to think in terms of geometry...
You would (then) also have to create a circle of least radiest possible around the current ball position - ie nearest - where neither the ball nor stance (and possibly nor swing) intersects with (or is interfered with if relief from swing is allowed) the condition/obstruction - that-s relief. Either ball or stance (or limit of swing) would be on - that establishes 'the point' - the circumference of that circle and, to comply with the 'not nearer the hole requirement, outside the arc created earlier - that's 'not nearer the hole'.
Just think of the SQL involved in that description! Venn (and Colin) Diagrams are much easier!
If you really want to think in terms of geometry...
You would (then) also have to create a circle of least radiest possible around the current ball position - ie nearest - where neither the ball nor stance (and possibly nor swing) intersects with (or is interfered with if relief from swing is allowed) the condition/obstruction - that-s relief. Either ball or stance (or limit of swing) would be on - that establishes 'the point' - the circumference of that circle and, to comply with the 'not nearer the hole requirement, outside the arc created earlier - that's 'not nearer the hole'.
Just think of the SQL involved in that description! Venn (and Colin) Diagrams are much easier!
Colin L
Tour Winner
Foxholer
Blackballed
Even I am not inspired to make a diagram of that.
Ahah. Found the limit!
Though that's actually pretty much what we naturally do.
Shows how good the wording of the rules actually is to simply describe that guff!
Region3
Ryder Cup Winner
So in this case, do you need to re-drop because the ball at C is closer than the NPR, or is it ok because the ball struck the course behind the NPR is still not closer than the original position?
I think this was answered earlier, but there has been mucho confusion on my part since then!
Colin L
Tour Winner
The illustration was simply to show that the ball could roll nearer the hole than the NPR but still not be nearer the hole than the original position of the ball - something of an academic matter which you'd best forget.
If the ball rolls nearer the hole than the NPR alone, you must re-drop even if it is not nearer than the original position.
If the ball rolls nearer the hole than the NPR alone, you must re-drop even if it is not nearer than the original position.
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Region3
Ryder Cup Winner
stevelev
Journeyman Pro
- still within one club length of the NPR and not nearer the hole - but hey - who said golf should always be fair
You get 2 club lengths, see below
c. When to Re-Drop
A dropped ball must be re-dropped, without penalty, if it:
(i) rolls into and comes to rest in a hazard;
(ii) rolls out of and comes to rest outside a hazard;
(iii) rolls onto and comes to rest on a putting green;
(iv) rolls and comes to rest out of bounds;
(v) rolls to and comes to rest in a position where there is interference by
the condition from which relief was taken under Rule 24-2b (immovable
obstruction), Rule 25-1 (abnormal ground conditions), Rule 25-3
(wrong putting green) or a Local Rule (Rule 33-8a), or rolls back into the
pitch-mark from which it was lifted under Rule 25-2 (embedded ball);
(vi) rolls and comes to rest more than two club-lengths from where it first
struck a part of the course; or
(vii) rolls and comes to rest nearer the hole than:
(a) its original position or estimated position (see Rule 20-2b) unless
otherwise permitted by the Rules; or
Rule 20 83
(b) the nearest point of relief or maximum available relief (Rule 24-2,
25-1 or 25-3); or
(c) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the
water hazard or lateral water hazard (Rule 26-1).
If the ball when re-dropped rolls into any position listed above, it must be
placed as near as possible to the spot where it first struck a part of the
course when re-dropped.
Note 1: If a ball when dropped or re-dropped comes to rest and
subsequently moves, the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of
any other Rule apply.
Note 2: If a ball to be re-dropped or placed under this Rule is not
immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.
Foxholer
Blackballed
You are confusing where you are able to drop - within 1 club length on NPR etc in this relief situation.
And under what circumstance you must re-drop - if balls rolls more than 2 club lengths from where it first struck a part of the course.
These are completely different situations (I don't think that's the right word but I can't think of the one that is) only connected by the fact that there is a Drop involved! The first is where to drop and the second one states some rules about the validity of the drop.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Quick check on NPR. Ball is on an access track that you can take relief from. Ball is closest to one side. NPR is by definition the edge of the track closest to where the ball was lying given that subsequent stance taken to address ball at NPR is not on the track. The ball can be dropped within one club length of that boundary - it doesn't need to be dropped at the NPR i.e. on the boundary of track and rough.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Pretty much correct.
I would have thought that the boundary of track and rest of course could well be considered track, so onto the normal part of the course sufficient to prevent the swing being affected by the track would be NPR to me.
But certainly, within 1 Club length from there, not nearer the hole.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Indeed - I was just wondering at what point past the boundary (which is by definition (?) a line) of track and rest of course does the rest of the course start and hence where our NPR is? 1" or 1.68" from the boundary or what? As we can drop within one club length of the NPR it generally doesn't matter - but I am sure that there will be a definition or decision given a situation when it did matter.
My guess is that the NPR is the point beyond where the very existence of the track has changed the nature of the 'rest of the course' compared with how it would probably have been had the track not been there.
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