Mick Philpott

[forefortheday]

I think that kind of logic is naive. We all know the benefit problem is not just about families with 10 or more children, it about a system that we cannot afford and has created a culture where people are encouraged not to work and to have children (not always more than 10) to get more state handouts and housing.

Just take the case of a a teenage girl who has not been interested with her education, left school barely literate and numerate and is unemployable. Does she stay at home with her parents who may never have worked or get pregnant a few times by some young man who is of a similar ilk and has no means to support her and the kids, she then becomes a priority for social housing and gets enough benefits to have Sky TV, a 50 inch television, and an iphone. Just look around you and see whats going on.

Yes it's very naive of me to point out that corporate tax avoidance costs the UK billions in comparison to the savings that could be made by punishing a very small section of our society.

The biggest costs are currently pensions and housing benefit with unemployment benefit making up a grand total of 2.6% of the total bill.

The current attempts to reduce the total costs of benefits are nothing more than Cameron and co pursuing ideological policies dressed up as economics.

Or do you really believe we will grow our economy by "taxing" spare bedrooms?

 

[Hobbit]

Or do you really believe we will grow our economy by "taxing" spare bedrooms?

Nothing like a bit of spin to spice up the day! Its not taxing, its giving away less of what the Govt shouldn't be spending anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I think the reduction in housing benefit is very wrong for all the reasons that people have quoted on here but at the end of the day I don't want an economy like Greece or Portugal.

By all means put my income tax up a few %, and no I don't earn loads, and spend it in the right place like the NHS and state pensions. But if you want to save money, put an end to the ridiculous index linked pensions paid to public sector workers.

 

[stevie_r]

In the 1950's my Mums friend had 9 children. In those days when there was NO benefit just the family allowance. 7/6d a week [38p]
All the children grew up to be hardworking decent citizens.

wouldn't it have been cheaper just to buy a tv?

 

[SocketRocket]

Yes it's very naive of me to point out that corporate tax avoidance costs the UK billions in comparison to the savings that could be made by punishing a very small section of our society.

The biggest costs are currently pensions and housing benefit with unemployment benefit making up a grand total of 2.6% of the total bill.

The current attempts to reduce the total costs of benefits are nothing more than Cameron and co pursuing ideological policies dressed up as economics.

Or do you really believe we will grow our economy by "taxing" spare bedrooms?

Two wrongs dont make a right. All these areas need addressing to reduce the overspend that cannot continue unchecked.

It amuses me how someone opens a debate on a subject like child benefits and people jump in and make comments saying things like 'tax the bankers or tax buisnesses'. State spending has got out of control and must be addressed, holes in the taxation system do need fixing but what we dont want to do is scare off business or prevent new business from being created, these are where new jobs and national wealth is made.

Maybe you believe that a new Labour Government will fix it all and everyone will be better off. I can only say, wait and see how bad it can get.

 

[forefortheday]

Two wrongs dont make a right. All these areas need addressing to reduce the overspend that cannot continue unchecked.

It amuses me how someone opens a debate on a subject like child benefits and people jump in and make comments saying things like 'tax the bankers or tax buisnesses'. State spending has got out of control and must be addressed, holes in the taxation system do need fixing but what we dont want to do is scare off business or prevent new business from being created, these are where new jobs and national wealth is made.

Maybe you believe that a new Labour Government will fix it all and everyone will be better off. I can only say, wait and see how bad it can get.

To use Vodafone as an example again, they seem quite happy doing business in Germany and France where they actually pay tax.

No multinational would stop doing business in Britain as long as they can make a profit. We just seem to be happy to let them make more than they do anywhere else in Europe.

How can they create wealth for the UK if they take all the profits and don't pay tax?

The benefits debate is part of a larger debate around the deficit and how it should be reduced therefore in my eyes the two are intrinsically linked.

 

[SocketRocket]

To use Vodafone as an example again, they seem quite happy doing business in Germany and France where they actually pay tax.

No multinational would stop doing business in Britain as long as they can make a profit. We just seem to be happy to let them make more than they do anywhere else in Europe.

How can they create wealth for the UK if they take all the profits and don't pay tax?

The benefits debate is part of a larger debate around the deficit and how it should be reduced therefore in my eyes the two are intrinsically linked.

I understand your point with Vodafone but it's not quite correct that they take all the profits and pay no tax. They employ many people and pay a massive amount in Employeers national Insurance, their employees also pay tax and NI out of their wages. Where cpmpanies like this save is by not paying Coorporation tax on their profits, this is normally due to the profit being made in an ofshore company and this is legal at the moment. I believe the Government is taking steps to try and stop this happening, but it is not a new thing introduced by the current government, it has happened for decades.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I understand your point with Vodafone but it's not quite correct that they take all the profits and pay no tax. They employ many people and pay a massive amount in Employeers national Insurance, their employees also pay tax and NI out of their wages. Where cpmpanies like this save is by not paying Coorporation tax on their profits, this is normally due to the profit being made in an ofshore company and this is legal at the moment. I believe the Government is taking steps to try and stop this happening, but it is not a new thing introduced by the current government, it has happened for decades.

The concept is called transfer pricing, and it is heavily legislated on both an European and worldwide basis. As I know someone who knows a lot about this, the advice is do not believe everything you read in the papers unless you read the Financial Times as most of the comment/articles about this is very simplified at best, or in the case of some papers, just plain wrong and used to drum up hate against large companies.

Most of these companies do not syphon profits to off shore companies, but they offset their profits in any country by using massive investments in other things to write off the tax. Much like happens for any self employed person, apart from they are doing it on a massive scale. It may be morally dubious, but it is very legal.

And good point about all these companies paying a lot in NI and their employees paying tax.

 

[stevelev]

The concept is called transfer pricing, and it is heavily legislated on both an European and worldwide basis. As I know someone who knows a lot about this, the advice is do not believe everything you read in the papers unless you read the Financial Times as most of the comment/articles about this is very simplified at best, or in the case of some papers, just plain wrong and used to drum up hate against large companies.

Most of these companies do not syphon profits to off shore companies, but they offset their profits in any country by using massive investments in other things to write off the tax. Much like happens for any self employed person, apart from they are doing it on a massive scale. It may be morally dubious, but it is very legal.

And good point about all these companies paying a lot in NI and their employees paying tax.

This and several posts before are getting a bit off track. Is this post not about Mick Philpott???

 

[SocketRocket]

This and several posts before are getting a bit off track. Is this post not about Mick Philpott???

I think we have almost exhausted that conversation unless you have anything to add?

 

[Ethan]

This whole rant on Philpott is exactly what Gideon Osborne, heir apparent to the Osborne barony, wants. He wants you all to extrapolate the actions of the waste of oxygen Philpott to other welfare recipients, and rise up as one to put these scroungers back where they used to be.

That overlooks the huge lesson of history that the best thing to happen to the population, particularly the working classes, was welfare, with trade unionism as a close second. The combination of thee two gave families the opportunity to earn a decent wage or to aspire to do better, and the population overall benefitted hugely. Of course, the Tories would paint Philpott as the poster boy for a welfare system gone wrong, but that is simply untrue. Philpott was a sociopath, and probably always had been. He had a charge of manslaughter levelled against him over 30 years ago, so he had some form. The fact he was a welfare recipient is irrelevant, just as his skin colour, accent or favourite football team are irrelevant. It is scandalous that many families who are trying to do their best will suffer as a result of "reforms" introduced by the Eton educated and old money soaked politicians with an ideological agenda just looking for cover.

If it hadn't been for the welfare system, I would never have gone to University. I am doing just fine now, thanks, but I would never have a go at the many other decent families just because of one isolated extreme. Welfare "reforms" will reverse generations of social mobility.

Likewise, trade unionism allowed many working men and women to earn enough to get their kids to a slightly better school, have indoor plumbing and put decent food at the table. If you listened to the Tories, you would think all trade unionists are rabid Scargillites. They are not. I am a member of a trade union. The BMA prefers to call itself a Professional Organisation, but it is a trade union.

Don't fall for the spin being carefully leaked out. Philpott is in prison for the duration. That problem is solved. There is no need to create another generation of crisis families under the guise of fixing a problem that does not exist.

 

[Hacker Khan]

If it hadn't been for the welfare system, I would never have gone to University.

If you listened to the Tories, you would think all trade unionists are rabid Scargillites. They are not. I am a member of a trade union. The BMA prefers to call itself a Professional Organisation, but it is a trade union.

Feckless scrounging workshy fop

I think the unions do not help themselves as all you tend to associate unions with nowadays are strikes, and you only tend to hear from the more militant ones who just seem to want to oppose any changes, especially in the public sector. The unions 'mouthpieces' they put on the media are often their own worst enemies as you can guarantee they will start mentioning greedy bankers within 10 seconds. When often that is nothing to do with what they are threatening industrial action for. Oh for a sensible reasoned debate........

But of course I am sure a lot of this is spin depending on where you get the news from.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So I'm top dog around here and need to make sure everyone knows that I'm the boss - and I'm in control. So I need to put someone in their place - make an example of.

Maybe you over there - bit weak and not many friends, and those you have are weak like you. And I know that when I'm done with you all that you'll do is go into a corner and have a greet over it. I'll rob you but cos you never have much money I'll giove you a wee rough up at the same time. You'll mention it to some folk but they are used to you complaining about this that and the other - you get left out of that team, too little for that one, not bright enough for the group - so they'll think it's just you having another whinge - what's the problem anyway - you've not lost much money - and hey - just grow up - a wee beating never really matters much - part of life- get used to it. Besides you and your mates - they can't touch me - bunch of losers. And teachers aren't too bothered about you as you are a struggler in class - you'll never get As or Bs.

Or maybe you over there. Yeh you...the bright popular kid - just the sort of person who might threaten me for top dog - you do need putting in your place. And you got loads of money - just what I need. But you'll make a lot of noise if I do you, and you'll fight back - and I don't fancy your mates - too many fit, sporty types. Besides you are the teachers' blue-eyed boy - they would make my life difficult. Hmmm.

Easy choice then - so watch out wimp I'm coming for you. Not too much money in it for me - but the rest will be scared of challenging me if I give you a good doing - and my mates will see me as #1 man - my boys.

Playground Bully or Head Boy?

Well I distance myself from the Playground bully.

 

[SocketRocket]

So I'm top dog around here and need to make sure everyone knows that I'm the boss - and I'm in control. So I need to put someone in their place - make an example of.

Maybe you over there - bit weak and not many friends, and those you have are weak like you. And I know that when I'm done with you all that you'll do is go into a corner and have a greet over it. I'll rob you but cos you never have much money I'll giove you a wee rough up at the same time. You'll mention it to some folk but they are used to you complaining about this that and the other - you get left out of that team, too little for that one, not bright enough for the group - so they'll think it's just you having another whinge - what's the problem anyway - you've not lost much money - and hey - just grow up - a wee beating never really matters much - part of life- get used to it. Besides you and your mates - they can't touch me - bunch of losers. And teachers aren't too bothered about you as you are a struggler in class - you'll never get As or Bs.

Or maybe you over there. Yeh you...the bright popular kid - just the sort of person who might threaten me for top dog - you do need putting in your place. And you got loads of money - just what I need. But you'll make a lot of noise if I do you, and you'll fight back - and I don't fancy your mates - too many fit, sporty types. Besides you are the teachers' blue-eyed boy - they would make my life difficult. Hmmm.

Easy choice then - so watch out wimp I'm coming for you. Not too much money in it for me - but the rest will be scared of challenging me if I give you a good doing - and my mates will see me as #1 man - my boys.

Playground Bully or Head Boy?

Well I distance myself from the Playground bully.

Can I have a puff of what your smoking?