SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
In a club matchplay competition can the players ignore stroke indexing and instead agree the holes that any shots given by one player to the other can be taken.
Matchplay Shots Given
- Thread starter SwingsitlikeHogan
- Start date
Jason.H
Well-known member
If you have say 5 shots you’ll get them on index 1 up to 5. Why would you want to do different? Curious.
rulie
Head Pro
What does it say in the Terms of the Competition issued by the Committee?
rosecott
Money List Winner
Who's to know? Just report the result to the committee.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Appendix E of the WHS says:
The Rules of Golf state: “The Committee is responsible for publishing on the
scorecard or somewhere else that is visible (for example, near the first tee) the
order of holes at which handicap strokes are to be given or received.” (See Rules of Golf, Committee Procedures, Rule 5I (4)).
Which inter alia says:
Match Play – In a handicap match, the Committee should clarify the following in the Terms of the Competition:
The stroke index allocation to be used to identify the order of holes where players will give or receive handicap strokes.
It seems clear that the players have no choice in the matter.
The Rules of Golf state: “The Committee is responsible for publishing on the
scorecard or somewhere else that is visible (for example, near the first tee) the
order of holes at which handicap strokes are to be given or received.” (See Rules of Golf, Committee Procedures, Rule 5I (4)).
Which inter alia says:
Match Play – In a handicap match, the Committee should clarify the following in the Terms of the Competition:
The stroke index allocation to be used to identify the order of holes where players will give or receive handicap strokes.
It seems clear that the players have no choice in the matter.
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SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Which is of course exactly as I‘ve always thought, but let’s just say I give one shot. Why could I not give my opponent a shot on a hole that is not SI 1, and he decides to not take it on the SI 1.
@Jason.H…I ask as due to significant ongoing work on the course I will be giving an opponent a shot on our 17th, which is temporarily reduced to a 60yd pitch to the green.
For the sake of the rule question put aside why I might want to seek this from my opponent or what difference it would make.
As suggested I will have a look for the Terms of the Competition.
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SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
If someone subsequently finds out would the winner be DQd?
rulefan
Tour Winner
As both would have agreed to waive a rule both would be DQd.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Indeed, except the loser wouldnt have anything to be getting DQd from.
But in truth if I am giving one shot in a match who is to tell me that I can’t give my opponent in the match a shot on a hole if I so choose…so if he gets a 4 on the hole I say that it’s a 3 as far as I am concerned, and on the SI 1 hole he declines to take the shot he’s due.
In any competition context other than a singles match of course shots received must be taken on the holes according to SI.
I am being a bit devils advocate about this…however…
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Crow
Crow Person
Just make it up as you go along why not?
Jason.H
Well-known member
Its 18 holes match play, Just bring your A game. Personally if an opponent turned up on the 1st tee and said he wants his shots on x,y and z holes I’d say no and that could then lead to bad feeling possibly. Match play can be stressful without changing things. Or is that your tactic ???
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I’m not thinking of doing it, but the circumstances made me wonder if I could.
TBH I’m still not sure that in a match a match pair couldn’t actually just decide to ignore the formal giving/receiving of shots and just agree between themselves holes where shots are given/received. There have been plenty of discussions on here where things can be different in matchplay. So for instance is there any rule that says that in a match the shots that can be given/received according to handicaps MUST be given and received.
If the conditions were utterly rubbish we might just say on the 1st…let’s just play it off scratch. It‘s an agreement made between the competitors that impacts no other player - unless there is a rule that tells us that such an agreement is not allowed in matchplay.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
In a match I can choose to ignore rule breaches by my opponent if I so choose, as likewise can he choose to ignore any rule breach I might commit. And so I am simply asking for a Rule that prohibits what I suggest.
rulie
Head Pro
Again, what do the Terms of the Competition say about how strokes will be applied? Players must not deviate from those Terms or they may be dq’d.
Steven Rules
Well-known member
OK, try these then:
3.2c(2)
Each player is responsible for knowing the holes where they give or get handicap strokes, based on the stroke index allocation set by the Committee (which is usually found on the scorecard).
3.2d(4)
...if the player and opponent agree not to apply the Rules ....... and either of those players has started the round, they are both disqualified under Rule 1.3b.
Although, having said that, 3.2c(2) does go on to contemplate inadvertent failure to apply handicap strokes correctly:
If the players fail to apply or mistakenly apply handicap strokes on a hole, the agreed result of the hole stands, unless the players correct that mistake in time
But, rather than trying to be sneaky or tricky, or trying to outsmart everybody else by looking for loopholes, why not just play in the spirit of the game as required by Rule 1.2a:
Conduct Expected of All Players
All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:
Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules
rulefan
Tour Winner
The players cannot agree to breach the rules 3.2d(4)
bobmac
Major Champion
If you are giving one shot, you give it on the hole that is stroke index 1.
How is that hard to understand and to follow?
How is that hard to understand and to follow?
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I’m not trying to be sneaky or tricky…I’m just wondering what the rules say. And this from 3.2c(2) indicates to me that what I am asking about is a failure to apply a stroke on a hole, no mention of deliberate, result of hole would stand, and so in respect of the rules we’d be OK.
And on integrity, I fail to see how doing something in a knockout matchplay context that is agreed by both parties and does not break any rule can in any way be outside the spirit of the game. Indeed it might be fully in accordance with the spirit of the game.
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SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Breaching the Terms of the Comp I get…but what rule would we be breaching given what @SR has posted in respect of Rule 3.2c(2).
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Of course I understand giving shots on holes according to SI, but that’s not my question.
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