Matchplay Shots Given

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Appendix E of the WHS says:
The Rules of Golf state: “The Committee is responsible for publishing on the
scorecard or somewhere else that is visible (for example, near the first tee) the
order of holes at which handicap strokes are to be given or received.” (See Rules of Golf, Committee Procedures, Rule 5I (4)).

Which inter alia says:
Match Play – In a handicap match, the Committee should clarify the following in the Terms of the Competition:
The stroke index allocation to be used to identify the order of holes where players will give or receive handicap strokes.


It seems clear that the players have no choice in the matter.

Sorry, but I am not so sure that the above specifically excludes mutual agreement by both players to a variation, rather it sets out the standard that either player can insist upon. Any way…the Terms of Comp suggest some flexibility so I will ask our Golf Manager.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The fact that any player could rock up on the 1st tee and suggest/ ask his opponent if he would mind dropping his 1 shot advantage is absurd.

He might well suggest that (due to course work impact on the hole) it is absurd that he gets a shot on our 17th and so in the spirit of the game he makes an offer to use the shot elsewhere…he’s not dropping the shot. As previously mentioned I’d politely decline any such offer.

 

[rulie]

Moving along this strange line of thinking, would the two players playing the match be permitted to implement lift, clean and place for their match? If not, why in your opinion?
And yes, the Committee has responsibilities for the Terms of the Competition, and once set, those Terms are for everyone in the competition.

 

[Crow]

Note to self;
NEVER play SLH for money.

 

[D-S]

Been reading the Competitions Handbook. Terms of Competition set out for every competition and format, and no mention of how shots are to be given/taken for any matchplay comp.

However in the section headed Knock-Out Competitions the following is stated…and we are currently in a period of course work and hole closure. Nothing specific has been advised to competitors at this time by the competitions committee

During periods of course work and hole closures, the format and configuration of play will be set out by the competitions committee. The layout and stroke index application must be agreed by both sides prior to play.

(my bold highlighting)

So theoretically they could decide that the layout is a Squash Court and stroke index is on first serve?

Honestly, just play by the rules and stop trying to second guess every thing.

 

[Jason.H]

What makes golf so appealing to many is the handicapping system and the rules make it a level playing field.

 

[Steven Rules]

I’m sorry…but what rule on the application of strokes in matchplay in accordance with the SI would be breached. What is being quoted to me here does not seem to mandate that strokes can only be given and taken in accordance with the SI

Now I'm sorry. I just can't move past the way you and your opponent are revising the stroke index to suit your own purposes and biases. How do you interpret this part of Rule 3.2c(2)?

Each player is responsible for knowing the holes where they give or get handicap strokes, based on the stroke index allocation set by the Committee (which is usually found on the scorecard).

I interpret it to mean that the players give or get handicap strokes based on the stroke index allocation set by the Committee, not anybody else, and that the players are responsible for knowing which holes those are.

I get that…and I’d deserve all the condemnation I’d get as well as possible censure by my club.

I am curious - why do you think that you would be subject to condemnation and censure? It seems to me that your position is that you are not breaking any rules and, indeed, you are playing within the spirit of the game (#18).

 

[woofers]

Why not ask the club / committee to re-assess the stroke indices until the work is completed?

 

[Jason.H]

Why not ask the club / committee to re-assess the stroke indices until the work is completed?

Yes ask the committee . Maybe get new scorecards printed. If the work is temporary I don’t see the need. Seems a lot of fuss over 1 shortened hole.

 

[salfordlad]

I’m not trying to be sneaky or tricky…I’m just wondering what the rules say. And this from 3.2c(2) indicates to me that what I am asking about is a failure to apply a stroke on a hole, no mention of deliberate, result of hole would stand, and so in respect of the rules we’d be OK.

My reading of "if the players fail to apply...." is like Steven and others are suggesting - it is intended to mean inadvertent. I don't think it is reasonable to read those words as "players are free to deliberately choose not to apply the stroke index allocation set by the Committee and make up their own index". No matter how you paint it, that is the simple outcome of your "no rule prevents it" view.
Rather than continue to bat away the multiple views here that do not agree with yours, you could send in a query. I think a deliberate agreement to change the index set by the Committee could be an agreement to breach the rules, but would welcome hearing an official view on the issue.
I also think it would be sensible for a Committee to make an index change in the sort of situation you are referring to. After all, Committees are likely to be changing par/slope/scratch ratings when they have significant different seasonal settings on the course.

 

[BiMGuy]

What makes golf so appealing to many is the handicapping system and the rules make it a level playing field.

It might if everyone played to the same rules and HC system?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Now I'm sorry. I just can't move past the way you and your opponent are revising the stroke index to suit your own purposes and biases. How do you interpret this part of Rule 3.2c(2)?

Each player is responsible for knowing the holes where they give or get handicap strokes, based on the stroke index allocation set by the Committee (which is usually found on the scorecard).

I interpret it to mean that the players give or get handicap strokes based on the stroke index allocation set by the Committee, not anybody else, and that the players are responsible for knowing which holes those are.

I am curious - why do you think that you would be subject to condemnation and censure? It seems to me that your position is that you are not breaking any rules and, indeed, you are playing within the spirit of the game (#18).

Not if what is suggested is allowed and I coerced a young opponent into agreeing something he didn’t want to do.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yes ask the committee . Maybe get new scorecards printed. If the work is temporary I don’t see the need. Seems a lot of fuss over 1 shortened hole.

Not a great fuss, just seeking clarification on the situation in the context of the rules for matchplay, and as only temporary not worth reindexing. Meanwhile as a result the full 18 Course is non-qualifying, though if we wish we can put cards in for the front 9.

As it happens our Saturday rollup simply chooses to drop the shot on the hole for it’s stableford comp.

 

[bobmac]

In any competition context other than a singles match of course shots received must be taken on the holes according to SI.

I would suggest.....
In any competition context, shots received must be taken on the holes according to SI.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What makes golf so appealing to many is the handicapping system and the rules make it a level playing field.

Absolutely…which is why some at my club think giving a shot in a match on our 17th is absurd. Despite what might be thought here I am not actually bothered, I just came seeking clarification under the rules of the suggestion I heard made.

 

[salfordlad]

Absolutely…which is why some at my club think giving a shot in a match on our 17th is absurd. Despite what might be thought here I am not actually bothered, I just came seeking clarification under the rules of the suggestion I heard made.

I wholly support you prodding and poking and questioning what the words mean - they are not always as clear as they can be. But I think you've taken this discussion as far as it can go without input from upstairs.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I wholly support you prodding and poking and questioning what the words mean - they are not always as clear as they can be. But I think you've taken this discussion as far as it can go without input from upstairs.

Agree. All along I have simply been seeking clarification on what the rules mandate in respect of shots in matchplay as opposed to what is given as guidance or across all formats of play, and whether in matchplay there are any (probably unusual) circumstances where a bit of latitude and flexibility is available to the players.

I will ask our Golf Manager (he was our pro so should not be without understanding) what is meant by the words in the Competitions Handbook…specifically that 2nd sentence in the context of the 1st.

During periods of course work and hole closures, the format and configuration of play will be set out by the competitions committee. The layout and stroke index application must be agreed by both sides prior to play.

 

[doublebogey7]

Agree. All along I have simply been seeking clarification on what the rules mandate in respect of shots in matchplay as opposed to what is given as guidance or across all formats of play, and whether in matchplay there are any (probably unusual) circumstances where a bit of latitude and flexibility is available to the players.

I will ask our Golf Manager (he was our pro so should not be without understanding) what is meant by the words in the Competitions Handbook…specifically that 2nd sentence in the context of the 1st.

During periods of course work and hole closures, the format and configuration of play will be set out by the competitions committee. The layout and stroke index application must be agreed by both sides prior to play.

What is the process if Players can't agree? It would seem to me that your committee is not carrying out its responsibilities with regard to the rules and opening itself up to having to rule on disputes that would be unnecessary if its terms of competition were clear.

 

[bobmac]

During periods of course work and hole closures, the format and configuration of play will be set out by the competitions committee. The layout and stroke index application must be agreed by both sides prior to play.

As there are no hole closures, there should be no discussion on layout, therefor no re-arrangement of stroke index.

 

[rulefan]

Absolutely…which is why some at my club think giving a shot in a match on our 17th is absurd.

Appendix E makes no mention of SI allocation relating to length or relative difficulty. So why fiddle around with the 17th?