Matchplay query - need assistance

salfordlad

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I feel I need to answer some of the criticism above. First off, its no wonder that M&H Secretaries are looked upon with such derision in some quarters, when common sense is bulldozed out of the way just to let them flex their power hungry muscles at times.
In this scenario, I firmly believe the Rules were not enough to bring about a satisfactory outcome. Last to pick up wins!! Give me a break!
The result here has 4 satisfied customers. Every scathing comment above has no one happy at the outcome.
One of the players who would have won the tie under the Rules was pleading with me, nearly crying, because he did not want his reputation tarred amongst his peers by progressing through when he felt he shouldn't have. Golf is all he has. What right have I to torture him so?
For those saying that both teams should be DQd, I can see no path under the rules to enforce that outcome, because of the frankly ridiculous Interpretation 23.2a/1.
I told all 4 players that it would be a different result under the rules. All 4 have thanked me seperately for reaching a decision that they all deem 'correct'.
I would simply ask the detractors above to consider the human element at times. I know 90% of M&H Secretaries will scoff at that, but remember you have the reputations and sentiments of human beings at stake that could be shattered in a second by your actions.
This is missing the really key issue. A team made an invalid claim that they had won the match on the previous hole and walked off the course without knowing the result of their claim. Who is ever justified in doing that? Short answer is no-one with less than perfect knowledge of the relevant rule - and these guys were clearly not that - even though it had been pointed out to them on the course.
Moreover, there is no possible argument, rules based or human based, that justifies them being promoted in a competition in which only match winners proceed. By what possible justification can anyone discontinue play invalidly and be treated as the winner of the match? It doesn't matter if all four are "happy", the game is much bigger than that and all competitors need to be protected according to the rules.
If, and I stress if because it is not the facts that emerged eventually, all four players thought (incorrectly) that the match was over, then the correct ruling would be declare the claim invalid, all four players get the one stroke penalty for moving their ball in play and the hole must be resumed at the earliest available opportunity. But the facts are different - one player identified the correct course but it was not followed. Consequently, my ruling is the claiming team get the general penalty under 3.2d(2)/23.8a(2) and so lose the match - they incurred a penalty (lifting ball without authority) and failed to declare it to their opponents which hurt their play by causing them also to discontinue the hole. Like Colin, I don't see the 23.2a/1 interpretation as relevant here.
If the winning team feel so bad about the human issues here, they can give the opponents in the next round a walkover.
 

Colin L

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This is missing the really key issue. A team made an invalid claim that they had won the match on the previous hole and walked off the course without knowing the result of their claim. Who is ever justified in doing that? Short answer is no-one with less than perfect knowledge of the relevant rule - and these guys were clearly not that - even though it had been pointed out to them on the course.
Moreover, there is no possible argument, rules based or human based, that justifies them being promoted in a competition in which only match winners proceed. By what possible justification can anyone discontinue play invalidly and be treated as the winner of the match? It doesn't matter if all four are "happy", the game is much bigger than that and all competitors need to be protected according to the rules.
If, and I stress if because it is not the facts that emerged eventually, all four players thought (incorrectly) that the match was over, then the correct ruling would be declare the claim invalid, all four players get the one stroke penalty for moving their ball in play and the hole must be resumed at the earliest available opportunity. But the facts are different - one player identified the correct course but it was not followed. Consequently, my ruling is the claiming team get the general penalty under 3.2d(2)/23.8a(2) and so lose the match - they incurred a penalty (lifting ball without authority) and failed to declare it to their opponents which hurt their play by causing them also to discontinue the hole. Like Colin, I don't see the 23.2a/1 interpretation as relevant here.
If the winning team feel so bad about the human issues here, they can give the opponents in the next round a walkover.

As I said, " knock their heads together in a friendly sort of way for stopping and send them out on the course to finish their match". :)

Seriously though, it can't be stressed enough for the OP that a side that actually lost a tie must not be put through to the next round no matter what. I have a vague recollection of that being in print somewhere, probably in the old Decisions book.
 

Swinglowandslow

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I feel I need to answer some of the criticism above. First off, its no wonder that M&H Secretaries are looked upon with such derision in some quarters, when common sense is bulldozed out of the way just to let them flex their power hungry muscles at times.
In this scenario, I firmly believe the Rules were not enough to bring about a satisfactory outcome. Last to pick up wins!! Give me a break!
The result here has 4 satisfied customers. Every scathing comment above has no one happy at the outcome.
One of the players who would have won the tie under the Rules was pleading with me, nearly crying, because he did not want his reputation tarred amongst his peers by progressing through when he felt he shouldn't have. Golf is all he has. What right have I to torture him so?
For those saying that both teams should be DQd, I can see no path under the rules to enforce that outcome, because of the frankly ridiculous Interpretation 23.2a/1.
I told all 4 players that it would be a different result under the rules. All 4 have thanked me seperately for reaching a decision that they all deem 'correct'.
I would simply ask the detractors above to consider the human element at times. I know 90% of M&H Secretaries will scoff at that, but remember you have the reputations and sentiments of human beings at stake that could be shattered in a second by your actions.

If this was an examination question, I.e. Hypothetical, on the rules and you were writing the answers down, then yes, team B don't go through. Could be that team A wanted to progress.
But, this is a real life scenario, where real people have entered a golf competition as friends and colleagues of the same club.

I have in the past been criticised for being something of a rules stickler, but in the REAL life events described here, I would come down on the side of Ian and say what he has decided here was the right outcome.
Not only for the reasons he had given above, but it seems to me that this scenario does illustrate the difference between stroke play and match play.

In stroke play the whole field has to be considered. In match play, it is between the two players/teams only.
And that is recognised, it seems to me, by the rule concerning who plays first. As far as I am aware ( I may be wrong on this, but it's not important)
this is the only rule where the decision as to the penalty for breaching the rule is left to the opponent.
I.e. Player who should have played first decides whether to let the 'wrong' shot stand.
As I say , that tells me that matches concern the combatants ,and not the whole field as in stroke play.
So, if all four team members are in agreement , then I can see every reason to accept their wishes.
 

Kellfire

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If this was an examination question, I.e. Hypothetical, on the rules and you were writing the answers down, then yes, team B don't go through. Could be that team A wanted to progress.
But, this is a real life scenario, where real people have entered a golf competition as friends and colleagues of the same club.

I have in the past been criticised for being something of a rules stickler, but in the REAL life events described here, I would come down on the side of Ian and say what he has decided here was the right outcome.
Not only for the reasons he had given above, but it seems to me that this scenario does illustrate the difference between stroke play and match play.

In stroke play the whole field has to be considered. In match play, it is between the two players/teams only.
And that is recognised, it seems to me, by the rule concerning who plays first. As far as I am aware ( I may be wrong on this, but it's not important)
this is the only rule where the decision as to the penalty for breaching the rule is left to the opponent.
I.e. Player who should have played first decides whether to let the 'wrong' shot stand.
As I say , that tells me that matches concern the combatants ,and not the whole field as in stroke play.
So, if all four team members are in agreement , then I can see every reason to accept their wishes.


Everyone who entered the competition and especially those who are left in it and could face the team who were erroneously put through are “the field”.

Imagine losing the final to a team who shouldn’t even be there. That would be awful.
 

Swinglowandslow

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Everyone who entered the competition and especially those who are left in it and could face the team who were erroneously put through are “the field”.

Imagine losing the final to a team who shouldn’t even be there. That would be awful.

How would that be awful. What? Awful! I'm not sure I know anyone at my club,who , knowing how that match ended, -that,( apart from a bunch of technicalities that yes, According to the strict rules says they shouldn't go through) ,on playing skill was won on the 18th green by team B, -would then consider playing against that team to be unfair and disadvantageous to them.
Your attitude to this is as if team B cheated or did some sort of underhand thing, to get through.
Good Lord. It's a club game of golf where the least one wants is for a sense of fairness not to be forgotten .
"Awful".. Sheesh!
 

Swinglowandslow

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Another misunderstanding here. Once a claim has been made, this statement is no longer valid, the participants in the contestant must accept the correct application of the rules.

I understand the "claim" was withdrawn.
In any event, I was highlighting the diff between match play and stroke play.
In that the players in the match can make decisions about the people they are playing with that couldn't be made in stroke play. E.g gimmes and the penalty I mentioned.
 

BiMGuy

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How would that be awful. What? Awful! I'm not sure I know anyone at my club,who , knowing how that match ended, -that,( apart from a bunch of technicalities that yes, According to the strict rules says they shouldn't go through) ,on playing skill was won on the 18th green by team B, -would then consider playing against that team to be unfair and disadvantageous to them.
Your attitude to this is as if team B cheated or did some sort of underhand thing, to get through.
Good Lord. It's a club game of golf where the least one wants is for a sense of fairness not to be forgotten .
"Awful".. Sheesh!

You mention playing skill. Unfortunately there are other aspects to golf. A large part of the game is understanding the rules and in matchplay knowing who has shots on what hole, and how you stand against your opponent.

The people playing this match failed in this regard, and then failed to apply the rules correctly.

They aren't bad people, just made a mistake. We all have. But if they are insisting on going through, or they might make life uncomfortable then they have absolutely no honour.

But the contrived reasons the OP has given for letting them through are nonsense and unfair on the rest of the field. He needs to have a word and get them all to withdraw from the competition and accept the result like grow ups.
 

salfordlad

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I understand the "claim" was withdrawn.
My understanding is this is one of many "no going back situations", along with making a concession, cancelling an opponent stroke, agreeing a wrong match score and agreeing how to resolve a rules issue. Pandora's Box can't be closed.
 

salfordlad

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Adding a technical angle that has not yet been explicitly discussed above - there is actually no authority in the rules for the Committee to rule on the claim that one side won the match on the 18th - because the conditions that enable a Committee to rule on a claim relating to a previous hole are not met (see last paragraph of 20.1b(2)). Consequently, the Committee can only guide on the rules impacts of the actions that took place on that first play off hole and my view of that is in #41 above.
As I said at the start, this scenario raised intriguing rules issues.
 

Foxholer

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Imagine losing the final to a team who shouldn’t even be there. That would be awful.
Utter twaddle! They won the match - by (in)correct application of the Rules! Their opponents screwed up, so lost it! Sure, they were 'lucky', but that is irrelevant!

If Team A wish to withdraw, then that is their choice, but I see no obligation to do so.
 
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MadAdey

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For gods sake people this is not the ryder cup and they defintly are not playing to pay their mortgages. Team A screwed up taking a shot where they did not have one and in the spirit of the game do not want to claim the win even though they can. Team B has been put through as they would have been if team A did not claim a shot they should not have had.

Yes they are in breach of the rules, but who are they hurting? This wasn't a stroke play event where their breach has affected others. They are through to the next round as they would have been if the shots had been given correctly. Some people do not play this game in the correct spririt and will apply rules wherever they can to claim a win. I take my hat off to them and congratulate them on doing the right thing.
 

Kellfire

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Utter twaddle! They won the match - by (in)correct application of the Rules! Their opponents screwed up, so lost it! Sure, they were 'lucky', but that is irrelevant!

If Team A wish to withdraw, then that is their choice, but I see no obligation to do so.
Yea but they didn’t win as per the rules so sort of makes your rant pointless.
 
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