Matchplay query - need assistance

nickjdavis

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Seems unlikely that all four would be able to synchronise their pick-ups without falling foul of more rules!!

you can imagine, players who knew the rule stood over their balls....would be like saying goodbye to the missus on the phone....you pick up first, no, you pick up.

I guess there's the probability that two players could both pick up without knowledge of the other (in trees, opposite sides of the fairway) and both emerge from the undergrowth saying that they'd picked up or couldn't find their ball...would be no way of determining whod' picked up first.

Must admit....I wasn't aware of the Interpretation so was interesting to read it...have posed the Q on a club group chat and I'm getting no end of "yeah but...what if this happened....?" as they try to find ways of arguing!!!
 

salfordlad

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Also for consideration is Interpretation 23.2a/1: In Four-Ball match play, if no player completes a hole, the side whose player is last to pick up or be disqualified from the hole wins the hole.
I don't think that the principle identified in that special case has generic application. As the players had already commenced the next hole, there was no opportunity to return and correct the rules breaches. The OP's 19th hole scenario is different.
 

badgergm

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you can imagine, players who knew the rule stood over their balls....would be like saying goodbye to the missus on the phone....you pick up first, no, you pick up.

I guess there's the probability that two players could both pick up without knowledge of the other (in trees, opposite sides of the fairway) and both emerge from the undergrowth saying that they'd picked up or couldn't find their ball...would be no way of determining whod' picked up first.

Must admit....I wasn't aware of the Interpretation so was interesting to read it...have posed the Q on a club group chat and I'm getting no end of "yeah but...what if this happened....?" as they try to find ways of arguing!!!
I’m envisaging a scenario where 2 people agree to pick up at same time (to replay the match somehow or something) but one person dummies the pick up in order to be last and win the match!
 

IanMcC

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I have spoken to all 4 players now. It would appear that one player from Team A hit his ball a lot further than the other 3, and he was not a party to the discussion when the scoring error on the 18th was spotted. The other 3 picked up their balls together, assuming a result had been reached. It was only the player who drove the furthest who disputed this result, as he was aware of Rule 3.2c and its ramifications. That brings Interpretation 23.2a/1 slap bang into the reckoning, unfortunately.
Where we are right now, I will have to award Team A the tie. The other member of Team A is not happy accepting the tie under these circumstances, however, as he does not want any ill feeling in the Section. He is going to try and convince his partner to let Team B have the tie, which would be the honourable thing to do, I feel. If he is adamant we stick to the rules, however, I will reluctantly have to award the tie to Team A. I'm expecting word tomorrow morning. I will keep you informed.
 

wjemather

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OK, Happy Days. Team A have requested that Team B progress. Sense has prevailed.
Can't say I agree. Team A can withdraw but, per the rules, Team B lost the match so were knocked out.
Surely it would be better if both teams just accepted the consequences of their own actions in mistakenly agreeing a wrong match score and then, not knowing (and not thinking to check) the rules before picking up.
 

IanMcC

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Can't say I agree. Team A can withdraw but, per the rules, Team B lost the match so were knocked out.
Surely it would be better if both teams just accepted the consequences of their own actions in mistakenly agreeing a wrong match score and then, not knowing (and not thinking to check) the rules before picking up.
I sort of knew you would come back with this. There are rules, and there is also living with your fellow Seniors days, months and years after the event. Are all the Seniors rules experts at your club? What has been decided today makes the future easier for all 4 players involved. If you cannot see that, and want to be a stickler for the rules (that did not, by the way, solve this situation satisfactorily), then I suggest you have a long hard look at your values.
 

wjemather

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I sort of knew you would come back with this. There are rules, and there is also living with your fellow Seniors days, months and years after the event. Are all the Seniors rules experts at your club? What has been decided today makes the future easier for all 4 players involved. If you cannot see that, and want to be a stickler for the rules (that did not, by the way, solve this situation satisfactorily), then I suggest you have a long hard look at your values.
Come on, they don't need babysitting (well, at least they shouldn't). And no, I wouldn't say any of our members (including those of us who've passed the R&A exams) are rules experts, and they don't need to be; but they are aware of the rules and accept them, even if it may seem harsh sometimes.
It may make it easier now, but what happens should they eventually walk off with an undeserved trophy; or the pair in the next round refuse to play because they know they shouldn't still be in the draw.
 
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salfordlad

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I sort of knew you would come back with this. There are rules, and there is also living with your fellow Seniors days, months and years after the event. Are all the Seniors rules experts at your club? What has been decided today makes the future easier for all 4 players involved. If you cannot see that, and want to be a stickler for the rules (that did not, by the way, solve this situation satisfactorily), then I suggest you have a long hard look at your values.
There is simply no authority in the Rules of Golf to have the next round's opponents playing Team B as Team B did not win the match. The Rules are there for all participants and giving Team B a second bite at the cherry does not do that, it accords Team B a value above all others in the competition that only proceed if they win a match. That is the long hard look at values that is most relevant.
 

Swinglowandslow

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I’m envisaging a scenario where 2 people agree to pick up at same time (to replay the match somehow or something) but one person dummies the pick up in order to be last and win the match!
Surely, it's if they agree to pick up , or not agree. Not just the physical act of who caused the ball to leave the turf last.
If there was a discussion say agreeing that, because of what happened in reality on the 18th, the match should go to B, and the balls should be picked up, I.e the match ended, then who bends down first or last is irrelevant.
If not, it gets silly.
"You only won because you're a decrepit old sod with arthritis who takes ages to bend down!"??
 

BiMGuy

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I sort of knew you would come back with this. There are rules, and there is also living with your fellow Seniors days, months and years after the event. Are all the Seniors rules experts at your club? What has been decided today makes the future easier for all 4 players involved. If you cannot see that, and want to be a stickler for the rules (that did not, by the way, solve this situation satisfactorily), then I suggest you have a long hard look at your values.

I couldn't disagree more with this stance. Would you decide on the same outcome if it was 4 juniors?

What other rules is the club happy to ignore just in case a few of the senior section can't behave like adults and accept their mistake?

If this particular group cannot live with the result of their failure to firstly know the situation of a hole/match and then play within the rules. That is their responsibility and I would be suggesting they consider very carefully whether competitive golf is for them.

The club have a responsibility to the other players in the competition to ensure they are administering and applying the rules correctly.
 
D

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I sort of knew you would come back with this. There are rules, and there is also living with your fellow Seniors days, months and years after the event. Are all the Seniors rules experts at your club? What has been decided today makes the future easier for all 4 players involved. If you cannot see that, and want to be a stickler for the rules (that did not, by the way, solve this situation satisfactorily), then I suggest you have a long hard look at your values.

Have read through the thread and imo you have made a Rod for your own back now - the result either stands at team A wins or both default and the next round is a bye - if things are manipulated to satisfy a few people what about the rest of the participants and indeed the integrity of the whole comp. Whats to stop another pair from doing the same or something similar, there is no way that Team B can be given the match.


I have had the same scenario a number of times and the result stands - it’s up to the teams to ensure the HC allowance is correct
 

IanMcC

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I feel I need to answer some of the criticism above. First off, its no wonder that M&H Secretaries are looked upon with such derision in some quarters, when common sense is bulldozed out of the way just to let them flex their power hungry muscles at times.
In this scenario, I firmly believe the Rules were not enough to bring about a satisfactory outcome. Last to pick up wins!! Give me a break!
The result here has 4 satisfied customers. Every scathing comment above has no one happy at the outcome.
One of the players who would have won the tie under the Rules was pleading with me, nearly crying, because he did not want his reputation tarred amongst his peers by progressing through when he felt he shouldn't have. Golf is all he has. What right have I to torture him so?
For those saying that both teams should be DQd, I can see no path under the rules to enforce that outcome, because of the frankly ridiculous Interpretation 23.2a/1.
I told all 4 players that it would be a different result under the rules. All 4 have thanked me seperately for reaching a decision that they all deem 'correct'.
I would simply ask the detractors above to consider the human element at times. I know 90% of M&H Secretaries will scoff at that, but remember you have the reputations and sentiments of human beings at stake that could be shattered in a second by your actions.
 

Colin L

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I feel I need to answer some of the criticism above. First off, its no wonder that M&H Secretaries are looked upon with such derision in some quarters, when common sense is bulldozed out of the way just to let them flex their power hungry muscles at times.
In this scenario, I firmly believe the Rules were not enough to bring about a satisfactory outcome. Last to pick up wins!! Give me a break!
The result here has 4 satisfied customers. Every scathing comment above has no one happy at the outcome.
One of the players who would have won the tie under the Rules was pleading with me, nearly crying, because he did not want his reputation tarred amongst his peers by progressing through when he felt he shouldn't have. Golf is all he has. What right have I to torture him so?
For those saying that both teams should be DQd, I can see no path under the rules to enforce that outcome, because of the frankly ridiculous Interpretation 23.2a/1.
I told all 4 players that it would be a different result under the rules. All 4 have thanked me seperately for reaching a decision that they all deem 'correct'.
I would simply ask the detractors above to consider the human element at times. I know 90% of M&H Secretaries will scoff at that, but remember you have the reputations and sentiments of human beings at stake that could be shattered in a second by your actions.

Ian
You put your dilemma to a rules forum and you got rules based help from people who know something about the rules. Now, because you don't like what you're hearing you dismiss an Interpretation as frankly ridiculous and it seems you don't really want a rules-based answer in favour of not upsetting people. I'm not surprised you're getting a "robust" response, but set that aside. It could be that your solution will establish a precedent you might come to regret. To my mind, only a rules-based answer can sort out the situation properly and with the least harm and for that answer you should refer it to the R&A.
 
D

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I feel I need to answer some of the criticism above. First off, its no wonder that M&H Secretaries are looked upon with such derision in some quarters, when common sense is bulldozed out of the way just to let them flex their power hungry muscles at times.
In this scenario, I firmly believe the Rules were not enough to bring about a satisfactory outcome. Last to pick up wins!! Give me a break!
The result here has 4 satisfied customers. Every scathing comment above has no one happy at the outcome.
One of the players who would have won the tie under the Rules was pleading with me, nearly crying, because he did not want his reputation tarred amongst his peers by progressing through when he felt he shouldn't have. Golf is all he has. What right have I to torture him so?
For those saying that both teams should be DQd, I can see no path under the rules to enforce that outcome, because of the frankly ridiculous Interpretation 23.2a/1.
I told all 4 players that it would be a different result under the rules. All 4 have thanked me seperately for reaching a decision that they all deem 'correct'.
I would simply ask the detractors above to consider the human element at times. I know 90% of M&H Secretaries will scoff at that, but remember you have the reputations and sentiments of human beings at stake that could be shattered in a second by your actions.

You asked for a ruling and going by the rules of golf you have been given the correct ruling

I’m fully understanding the dilemma and have been there myself and felt the brunt of the disappointment but for the integrity of the competition and the rest of the opponents then the rules must be followed despite what common sense dictates.

A team can’t go through when they haven’t won the match by rules of golf

If you want to use common sense then what happens next time when someone asks you to ignore the rule because common sense dictates it’s a bit unfair and silly ? You have created a precedent.

Team B have not won the match - doesn’t matter what team A believe , they can forfeit the next match if they wish , they could make the match a draw and then replay if possible but whilst it will at times make you unpopular and upset people you must stick to the rules and the rules of the competition- it will be worse if they are ignored because of human elements

What you also need to remember is your own reputation as HC Sec will potentially be at risk because you allowed rules to be ignored ( regardless of how silly you believe them to be )

I have been in your position and you just can’t please everyone so if you go by the rules then you at least have a solid backing and a point of reference to guide you and point them to with any complaints.

Put it this way if I was in that competition I would ask you to justify your solution and ask why golf rules were ignored
 

badgergm

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Is it not possible to interpret the Team A member agreeing to pick up on the 19th as having conceded that hole (and therefore the match) on behalf of the team?

Aside from that, is my scenario above of the devious dummy pick up valid? i.e. it is the physical picking up of the ball that matters, when determining 'last to pick up'?
 

Colin L

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Ian
Further thought as an alternative to asking for a ruling* from the R&A. What we have here are four guys who got in a muddle in a game of golf, got things wrong because of ignorance of the relevant rules (now there's a novelty!) and as a result ended their match prematurely in glorious confusion. I can't quite grasp how that has brought about tearful fears over a reputation, and all the stress you seem to be going through. We are talking about a game of golf aren't we? I can think of a goodly number of my fellow members who would bring a situation like that to me, expect me to sort it out with reference to the rules not anyone's feeling, accept the outcome and have a good laugh about it all.

Anyway, I'm not entirely comfortable with the application of Interpretation 23.2a/1 to this situation. It may fit the situation, but the situation doesn't seem to fit it. It's about sorting out an outcome where in the normal playing of a hole it so happened that no-one holed out. I think there is some merit in considering that they stopped playing in order to get a ruling, give them that ruling (that the result on the 18th stands and the game is all square), knock their heads together in a friendly sort of way for stopping and send them out on the course to finish their match.
 

BiMGuy

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Surely the simple solution is Team B lose the match as per the rules.

Then Team A withdraw from the competition to maintain their honour and dignity if they so wish.

Everyone wins or loses as the case may be.
 
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