Level of rules awareness to expect in UK

[dejf]

I see these as quite different situations. Our player who doesn't tell his FC he has played outside the teeing ground till after he has played has behaved badly, but he has not, as the player in 33-7/9 connived to ignore someone else's breach of the rules with the deliberate intention of allowing him to submit a false score. The implication in 33-7/9 is of deliberate deceit with the purpose of assisting another player to cheat. That's a long way from our man who has drawn his FC's attention to a breach and ensured that the penalty is applied and the correct procedure followed. His timing may be dodgy, but his belated action is correct.

Will PM you on this as I am interested to hear more.

 

[CMAC]

What occurs in this situation? I presume a penalty? One shot or two? Do you then go through the process of replacing the ball wedged against the pin, lift it out, let the ball drop etc?

CMAC - With your teeing incident, were you penalised for teeing from the wrong box or was it a straight re-load from the correct place, shot 1 in effect?

sorry, missed this.

3 off the tee from the correct teeing area.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

sorry, missed this.

3 off the tee from the correct teeing area.

Miserable blighters. I asked the question earlier if that could be waived and apparently the answer is yes as it was Matchplay.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Miserable blighters. I asked the question earlier if that could be waived and apparently the answer is yes as it was Matchplay.

Correct. In matchplay as his opponent you can waive the mistake if you wish - and so let him stew in his own juice if he's popped it somewhere horrid. Or you can ask him to play it again (at no penalty) if he has stonked it down the middle

In stokeplay he is penalised. As CMAC says - he plays again from the correct tee but is playing three off the tee. You have no discretion in the matter.

 

[Tashyboy]

H'mm! I'm not certain about that analogy!

While a 28-capper is likely to know/understand the rules less than a lower one, they are also far more likely to encounter situations where a knowledge of the rules is required/helps. So those who realise and act upon that fact will tend to get a better knowledge of them than others. Likewise, there comes a point where low-cappers get stale and don't keep up with changes or even encounter situations where rules knowledge can help.

I wouldn't think that a Scratch player has much, if any, better knowledge of the Rules than an 8-10 capper. And Pros certainly should not be considered as Rules experts!

Tha last paragragh is what I was trying to emphasise but in the same sense. A player who starts off at 28 and in essence over the years will get better and so will the players knowledge. If you get to a level of 20 I think you knowledge of the rules will stay at 20 (there or there abouts)

open question on how would a scratch player feel if he was in a comp and is faced with a situation where you should know a basic rule that a 28 handicapper should know but dosent.

played in a hurricane today and put my second shot into the middle of a tree that had fallen onto a fairway. What's the ruling on that.

 

[rulefan]

played in a hurricane today and put my second shot into the middle of a tree that had fallen onto a fairway. What's the ruling on that.

Have you checked the definitions?
Was the tree still rooted in the ground?
What rule is associated with what you found in the definitions?

 

[dewsweeper]

I believe,that in situation that cannot be settle amicably that it is allowed to play the ball as lies and then drop another ball and play out with both balls and record each score.
Then on completion of the round seek advice on the correct proceedure and enter the correct score.
Anyone know if this is still the case?
Dewsweeper

 

[dejf]

I believe,that in situation that cannot be settle amicably that it is allowed to play the ball as lies and then drop another ball and play out with both balls and record each score.
Then on completion of the round seek advice on the correct proceedure and enter the correct score.
Anyone know if this is still the case?
Dewsweeper

Yes, this is highly recommended if you are not sure about any kind of situation in stroke play. It is described by rule 3-3 and one must be sure to follow the procedure of this rule correctly.

 

[Slab]

I believe,that in situation that cannot be settle amicably that it is allowed to play the ball as lies and then drop another ball and play out with both balls and record each score.
Then on completion of the round seek advice on the correct proceedure and enter the correct score.
Anyone know if this is still the case?
Dewsweeper

The Strokeplay rule is this (extract)

"3-3. Doubt as to Procedure
a. Procedure

In stroke play, if a competitor is doubtful of his rights or the correct procedure during the play of a hole, he may, without penalty, complete the hole with two balls.

After the doubtful situation has arisen and before taking further action, the competitor must announce to his marker or fellow-competitor that he intends to play two balls and which ball he wishes to count if the Rules permit."

The important bit I think is that the player has to state which ball he wants to count as the ruling may go against him

 

[dejf]

played in a hurricane today and put my second shot into the middle of a tree that had fallen onto a fairway. What's the ruling on that.

dec. 23/7 is specific about this one:

Q: Is a fallen tree a loose impediment?

A: If it is still attached to the stump, no; if it is not attached to the stump, yes.


Note that even in case of loose impediment, it might not help you at all if you have a ball "in" the tree (as you can't move the ball while removing LI). It would help you if your ball is somehow blocking your shot or stance ...


See also dec. 25/9.5 on how this can be solved in competition by Committee.

 

[Foxholer]

Correct. In matchplay as his opponent you can waive the mistake if you wish - and so let him stew in his own juice if he's popped it somewhere horrid. Or you can ask him to play it again (at no penalty) if he has stonked it down the middle

In stokeplay he is penalised. As CMAC says - he plays again from the correct tee but is playing three off the tee. You have no discretion in the matter.

And that's one of the reasons why you cannot play Matchplay and Strokeplay in the same round!
FWIW. The reasoning behind the 2 different 'penalties' is that in Matchplay, everybody who has an interest is present, whereas in Strokeplay, except in 1 extreme case, they are not. That's also why the opponent in Matchplay can ignore breaches (but can't agree to ignore them) and concede putts, but FC in stokeplay cannot.

 

[Tashyboy]

Have you checked the definitions?
Was the tree still rooted in the ground?
What rule is associated with what you found in the definitions?

the hole in question was a par five with oob all the way down the right side which had a stream running down the right side as well. I drove the ball down the middle and the second shot was knobbed 80 yd into the middle of a tree which was originally on the other side of the stream. It was a big tree which had snapped about 6ft up and had fallen across part to the fairway. Just where my ball ended up.
it was matchplay and I did not have a clue. My opponent said take the ball back as far as req for a free drop. Which I did and promptly smashed my hybrid 150 into a bunker the other side of the fairway. Strange thing is I won the hole and went on to win my first matchplay (yesterday) 2 an 1. In weather conditions of biblical proportions.
apoke to a guy at work who said the fallen tree could be classed as GUR s I could take ball backwards to where I felt fit which is what I did.
He also mentioned I could of agreed two scores with my opo and apoke to pro in shop at the end to find correct ruling.
thoughts please

 

[Colin L]

Firstly, you cannot play two balls in matchplay if in doubt. If there is a dispute with an opponent you must tell him before starting the next hole that you are going to make a claim. The Committee will then consider the claim and make a ruling on which the state of the match will be adjusted. See Rule 2-5. In this instance, you and your opponent agreed on how to proceed and so there was no dispute.

It sounds as if the bit of the tree had completely separated from the rest in which case it was a loose impediment. The only free relief available is to move it or break bits off it to make some space. A player cannot determine GUR - only the Committee can do that. And if it had, taking the ball back as far you like is not exactly the correct procedure! If you can't shift the tree or take enough bits off it, and there is no way of getting a Committee decision, your last recourse is to deem your ball unplayable and take relief under penalty.

Your "guy at work" didn't do too well, did he?

 

[Region3]

With no basis for this other than being a guess....

Can you not assume that the green-keepers will clear it when they are next on the course and therefore it is material piled for removal, or do greenkeepers have to have created the 'mess' for that to be the case?

 

[Colin L]

If it's just a fallen tree, no-one has piled it for removal, have they? If the greenkeepers had started cutting it up, that would be different.

 

[woody69]

With no basis for this other than being a guess....

Can you not assume that the green-keepers will clear it when they are next on the course and therefore it is material piled for removal, or do greenkeepers have to have created the 'mess' for that to be the case?

That would be quite stretch to assume that I feel!

 

[Region3]

That would be quite stretch to assume that I feel!

I agree with you with regards to the ruling, but if there's half a tree lying across a fairway I'd be pretty upset if the powers that be at the golf club decided it would be a good idea to leave it there. That's where my 'assume' came from.

 

[louise_a]

One of the ladies in our section is a referee, she is putting on a rules evening in a couple of weeks, it will be interesting to see how many attend.

 

[chrisd]

One of the ladies in our section is a referee, she is putting on a rules evening in a couple of weeks, it will be interesting to see how many attend.

My guess that it'll be all the people who know the rules better than most anyway

 

[Tashyboy]

I agree with you with regards to the ruling, but if there's half a tree lying across a fairway I'd be pretty upset if the powers that be at the golf club decided it would be a good idea to leave it there. That's where my 'assume' came from.

Trouble was with the tree it was actually two great trees growing up from the same root and one half had snapped off. It was weather of biblical proportions that we were playing in so no one with any sense would go near the tree which had fallen because of the danger of the other half wrapping over. Apart from some plank retrieving his ball😳