Letting people pass

[Grant85]

Perfect example of what not to do and causes issues - doesn’t matter what’s in front , if there is a quicker group behind that you are holding up then you let through and then you expect the rest tk also let them through

It's just too simplistic a view. Letting people through only speeds up the round for that one group. It slows down your group, possibly causing further delay to the group then behind.

I don't mind letting people through, especially obvious situations like a 2 ball behind a 4 ball, but if they are just going to run into another 4 ball on the next fairway I simply wouldn't bother.

As a 2 ball, I would expect the same treatment, especially added to the fact it's not all that enjoyable playing through a group and feeling like you need to rush so as not to delay them further.

And of course, the adage is always, keep up with the group in front, so your point is not endorsed by general advice to golfers from their clubs.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think you missed my point. If my group is jammed up behind a bunch of other groups.....our group is already playing slower than we would be playing. Letting a group go through when you are already waiting on most shots only means you have to take even more time for the round. Then of course.....the next group will have to let them through which costs them a few minutes.....and because of that it costs your group a few more minutes.

If I'm driving down the motorway and I come up on a slowdown in traffic.....should the cars in front of me let me through (I sure would like them to) because I am going faster than they are? Nope, they are already jammed up and waiting themselves (they would like to go faster as well). Letting me through would allow me to go faster, but other than for emergency vehicles it doesn't make sense.

I get that - what I'm saying is that letting a group through does not mean you play slower - you are still likely to play at the same speed as you were playing. All it means is that you might take longer to complete the hole and might take you longer to complete your round.

But of course you will never know one way or the other because when you let a group through you do not know before doing so how long it was going to take you to play the rest of the round. You might have a rough idea - but you won't know - so you won't actually know if the little bit of extra time taken to play the hole has actually increased the length of your round or not...you just think it must - but there is actually no must about it (see also the film 'Sliding Doors' )

 

[Mandofred]

I get that - what I'm saying is that letting a group through does not mean you play slower - you are still likely to play at the same speed as you were playing. All it means is that you might take longer to complete the hole and might take you longer to complete your round.

But of course you will never know one way or the other because when you let a group through you do not know before doing so how long it was going to take you to play the rest of the round. You might have a rough idea - but you won't know - so you won't actually know if the little bit of extra time taken to play the hole has actually increased the length of your round or not...you just think it must - but there is actually no must about it (see also the film 'Sliding Doors' )

I just don't get where you are coming from. As the red above states.....it will cause your group to take more time for their round. How much?....who knows....but longer. Why? Why should one group get to play faster (taking less time for their round). Pretty well every group out there would like to take less time but everybody is held up by one or two just plain slow groups.
1. A group getting let through will take less time for their round. Yes?
2. A group letting another group play through even though there is no space between groups will cause that group to take longer for a round, Yes? Letting a group in front of you with no space is NOT going to speed your round up, it can only cause it to take longer.

Again.....why should one group get to play faster/taking less time at the detriment of other groups? (who are already taking more time than they would like).

 

[Leftie]

This same argument keeps coming up. Question.....if your group is jammed up behind a bunch of other groups.....the group coming up behind you is only "playing faster" because you are jammed up behind those other groups.....yes? Why should I have to play even slower so that somebody else can play faster?

I, for one, understand where you are coming from BF. We are currently teeing off at strict 10 min intervals. 4 weeks ago as a 4 ball we caught up with the 3 ball ahead on the 3rd. Despite doing the usual i.e. looking at our watches/sitting on our trolley bags, standing in the "teapot" stance (hands on hips), they had no intention of even acknowledging our presence and we were waiting on almost every shot. Got to the 8th and the 3 ball behind caught us up and asked to be let through as they were obviously the faster group. Yeh right. It had taken them 8 holes to catch up 10 mins on us and we had been held up on every hole after the 2nd.

Played the 9th and cut across to the 12th while the group in front were on 10th. We finished 50 mins before they did.

 

[hovis]

It's just too simplistic a view. Letting people through only speeds up the round for that one group. It slows down your group, possibly causing further delay to the group then behind.

I don't mind letting people through, especially obvious situations like a 2 ball behind a 4 ball, but if they are just going to run into another 4 ball on the next fairway I simply wouldn't bother.

As a 2 ball, I would expect the same treatment, especially added to the fact it's not all that enjoyable playing through a group and feeling like you need to rush so as not to delay them further.

And of course, the adage is always, keep up with the group in front, so your point is not endorsed by general advice to golfers from their clubs.

What happens if there is a two ball up behind you but two four balls immediately after you and then an empty course after that?

 

[Leftie]

I've always held the view that when all groups are fairly tight up with each other with no real gaps ahead, if you let the group behind through then your round, and that of the groups behind will be delayed by up to 10 mins or so. If the group in front then let them through, that's another up to 10 min delay.

 

[Grant85]

What happens if there is a two ball up behind you but two four balls immediately after you and then an empty course after that?

We're now getting into the realms of seeing two holes ahead of where you are to determine if there is a group on that hole.

If that was obviously the case and it was early in the round I wouldn't have a problem. But as I said, it's not just a simple solution, given that it will mean it takes you nearly twice as long to play that hole.

IMO, the groups that just give up and let anyone behind them through are problematic as they will cause a hold up throughout their round if letting multiple groups through, rather than just keeping up with the group in front as best they can, or waiting for a lost ball situation to call a group through.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I just don't get where you are coming from. As the red above states.....it will cause your group to take more time for their round. How much?....who knows....but longer. Why? Why should one group get to play faster (taking less time for their round). Pretty well every group out there would like to take less time but everybody is held up by one or two just plain slow groups.
1. A group getting let through will take less time for their round. Yes?
2. A group letting another group play through even though there is no space between groups will cause that group to take longer for a round, Yes? Letting a group in front of you with no space is NOT going to speed your round up, it can only cause it to take longer.

Again.....why should one group get to play faster/taking less time at the detriment of other groups? (who are already taking more time than they would like).

The point I was trying to make is that just before I let a group through I do not know how long my round is going to take to complete - I just can’t know that - for obvious reasons. I might guess but my guess is probably only going to be accurate to an uncertainty of something like plus or minus 15mins...and letting a group through is unlikely to take me outside of that level of uncertainty.

We always imagine that letting a group through will mean our round will take longer to complete, but the simple fact is that due to a load of uncertain variables associated with our golf and that of those in front of us we just don’t actually know. So if a group is pressing up close I am more inclined than not to just let them through - regardless of whether I think they have anywhere to go. It’s not going to impact the length of my round of golf very much if at all.

I don’t care a jot if a group I let through gets round quicker than me. If I am ok with the pace and likely duration of my round - or am accepting of it - then that’s fine by me.

 

[Mandofred]

The point I was trying to make is that just before I let a group through I do not know how long my round is going to take to complete - I just can’t know that - for obvious reasons. I might guess but my guess is probably only going to be accurate to an uncertainty of something like plus or minus 15mins...and letting a group through is unlikely to take me outside of that level of uncertainty.

We always imagine that letting a group through will mean our round will take longer to complete, but the simple fact is that due to a load of uncertain variables associated with our golf and that of those in front of us we just don’t actually know. So if a group is pressing up close I am more inclined than not to just let them through - regardless of whether I think they have anywhere to go. It’s not going to impact the length of my round of golf very much if at all.

I don’t care a jot if a group I let through gets round quicker than me. If I am ok with the pace and likely duration of my round - or am accepting of it - then that’s fine by me.

You haven't answered my question. Why should one group get to play a quicker round at the detriment to other groups? I state that letting a group (or more) in front of your group (during a busy crowded round) will make the round longer for my group. Can you give me a viable reason how it would be quicker? I can't think of one, unless the groups in front of me quit and walk off out of frustration which would allow my group to play faster.....a bit far fetched. I would expect the round to just be slower/longer and I would deal with it......it happens and I just suck it up and live with it.

 

[hovis]

We're now getting into the realms of seeing two holes ahead of where you are to determine if there is a group on that hole.

If that was obviously the case and it was early in the round I wouldn't have a problem. But as I said, it's not just a simple solution, given that it will mean it takes you nearly twice as long to play that hole.

IMO, the groups that just give up and let anyone behind them through are problematic as they will cause a hold up throughout their round if letting multiple groups through, rather than just keeping up with the group in front as best they can, or waiting for a lost ball situation to call a group through.

If it takes your group twice as long to play a hole after letting a faster group through then I suggest you're not letting them through correctly. Also, if you are keeping up with group in front what ever minimal time you have lost letting a group through is usually made up over the coming hole anyhow.

The problem with golfers seems to be "I'm not prepared to add time to my round to give it to someone else". I theory I get it. However, the total extra time would be minimal if any

 

[hovis]

You haven't answered my question. Why should one group get to play a quicker round at the detriment to other groups?

It's called being a nice human being. As a four ball I am more than happy to add 5 minutes to my round to not add an hour on to a two balls

 

[Mandofred]

It's called being a nice human being. As a four ball I am more than happy to add 5 minutes to my round to not add an hour on to a two balls

Couple of points.....and I can almost agree with doing it to be nice.
1. You think that letting a 2 ball through on a crowded golf course is only going to add 5 minutes to your time and it will save the 2 ball an hour? Hmmm
2. Back to my motorway example. If you are jammed up in heavy traffic creeping along at 10mph.....you will pull over and let the people behind you through.....to be nice? Not me. If I am in the way of somebody who is going faster and there is room to let the car pass....I get out of the way every time. I do the same on the golf course. To me, the problem is people not letting others through when there is obviously room to do so.

Again.......this whole topic is about 2 different situations.....one example is with a crowded golf course with groups waiting on each other, the second is the more common on our golf course with small spaces that faster groups can fit in with little issue. The situations are not the same.....and dealing with the crowded example requires what a lot of people don't have.....patience.

 

[MrGrumtastic]

Couple of points.....and I can almost agree with doing it to be nice.
1. You think that letting a 2 ball through on a crowded golf course is only going to add 5 minutes to your time and it will save the 2 ball an hour? Hmmm
2. Back to my motorway example. If you are jammed up in heavy traffic creeping along at 10mph.....you will pull over and let the people behind you through.....to be nice? Not me. If I am in the way of somebody who is going faster and there is room to let the car pass....I get out of the way every time. I do the same on the golf course. To me, the problem is people not letting others through when there is obviously room to do so.

Again.......this whole topic is about 2 different situations.....one example is with a crowded golf course with groups waiting on each other, the second is the more common on our golf course with small spaces that faster groups can fit in with little issue. The situations are not the same.....and dealing with the crowded example requires what a lot of people don't have.....patience.

I would consider it more like a country A-road than a motorway as there is only one lane and limited good opportunities for overtaking.

Consider the slow four ball as a tractor at the front of a queue. It may be followed by a bus (another four ball but a bit faster), then a van (a fast four ball or three ball). While both the bus and the van want to go faster than the tractor, neither is able to overtake unless the tractor pulls over to let them by.

Now consider yourself coming up behind that queue in your sports car. You want to go a lot faster, but there is no way to get by all three unless first the van then the bus give a little space to allow you to pass. So both the van and the bus have backed off, but ultimately they are still going to be held up by the tractor (adding no time to their round).

In theory the van might have a better chance of passing the tractor than the bus too, but the bus driver has too much of an ego to see that and let it by...

 

[hovis]

I would consider it more like a country A-road than a motorway as there is only one lane and limited good opportunities for overtaking.

Consider the slow four ball as a tractor at the front of a queue. It may be followed by a bus (another four ball but a bit faster), then a van (a fast four ball or three ball). While both the bus and the van want to go faster than the tractor, neither is able to overtake unless the tractor pulls over to let them by.

Now consider yourself coming up behind that queue in your sports car. You want to go a lot faster, but there is no way to get by all three unless first the van then the bus give a little space to allow you to pass. So both the van and the bus have backed off, but ultimately they are still going to be held up by the tractor (adding no time to their round).

In theory the van might have a better chance of passing the tractor than the bus too, but the bus driver has too much of an ego to see that and let it by...

I like this. Good way to explain it

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You haven't answered my question. Why should one group get to play a quicker round at the detriment to other groups? I state that letting a group (or more) in front of your group (during a busy crowded round) will make the round longer for my group. Can you give me a viable reason how it would be quicker? I can't think of one, unless the groups in front of me quit and walk off out of frustration which would allow my group to play faster.....a bit far fetched. I would expect the round to just be slower/longer and I would deal with it......it happens and I just suck it up and live with it.

Simply because I might choose to let it and not be bothered if it does play a quicker round than my group. Especially, as I suggest, as letting them through might not actually make any difference whatsoever to the length of my round and at the point of letting a group through I do not have an accurate idea of how long my round will take to within 15mins I suggest - there are so many variables in golf that introduce uncertainty and that can make my round take longer - or indeed quicken it. So if I let a group through properly and I take, say, 5 mins longer to play that hole, then my estimated duration will remain within that 15min uncertainty.

 

[Imurg]

The assumption in all this is that the tractor is going to let the van and the sports car through, when its been obvious for some time that its not going to let the bus through.
Why would it suddenly change strategy..?
I would be more than a little annoyed if, having been held up for many holes, the group I let through get let through immediately.

 

[chellie]

The assumption in all this is that the tractor is going to let the van and the sports car through, when its been obvious for some time that its not going to let the bus through.
Why would it suddenly change strategy..?
I would be more than a little annoyed if, having been held up for many holes, the group I let through get let through immediately.

Another annoyance I can add. The group of three/four that always hold me and HID up and never let us through despite losing holes let a two ball of men through I only book behind this group if there is no other option.

 

[MrGrumtastic]

The assumption in all this is that the tractor is going to let the van and the sports car through, when its been obvious for some time that its not going to let the bus through.
Why would it suddenly change strategy..?
I would be more than a little annoyed if, having been held up for many holes, the group I let through get let through immediately.

A very good point. To carry on with the analogy, the sports car only needs a small window of opportunity to pass - it's about relative speed after all.

Going back to golf, I would expect that the slow four ball would be more likely to let a two ball through than another four ball. They may even let through the fast four ball if they see the group behind doing so too, but I agree that is a bit more of a stretch!

 

[Slab]

A very good point. To carry on with the analogy, the sports car only needs a small window of opportunity to pass - it's about relative speed after all.

Going back to golf, I would expect that the slow four ball would be more likely to let a two ball through than another four ball. They may even let through the fast four ball if they see the group behind doing so too, but I agree that is a bit more of a stretch!

While I like the traffic passing analogy I think it’s a huge stretch to imagine that a 4-ball who won’t let a (faster) 4-ball through, would be more likely to let them through if the faster group were to split into 2x2 balls
All that will happen is the sports car will leapfrog the van and bus to be behind the tractor and the bus/van experience an even longer round that they were already suffering so that Mr Sports Car can get to the bar quicker

 

[Mandofred]

The A road analogy might work....if that was point I was trying to make. My point is that this isn't just a group or two holding things up....that happens all the time and on any given day....it is what it is. I'm talking a lovely sunny summer day (it does happen...doesn't it?) and everybody in the county is trying to play on the course. It's packed. You can go ahead and pass that tractor....but there is just another tractor in front of that....and on......and on. This does happen on busy days. Whether it is an A-road or the motorway is irrelevant .....it's packed and nobody is going anywhere....and there really just isn't anything to do but take a deep breath and make the best of the situation. I know I wouldn't show up on a day like that as a 2 ball and expect everybody to let me through.....it would be more of this kind of moment.....which occasionally somebody still brings up.