Letting people pass

[eddie_1878]

Effective marshalling and sanctions are the only answer.

Too many players seem more intent on keeping ahead of the group behind rather than up with the group in front. Too many simply won’t accept they are slow.

And, for reasons I cannot really grasp, committees seem really reluctant to grip those responsible. We all know who the culprits are. Our committees know who the culprits are. Yet nothing ever seems to change.

One of our past captains is painfully slow, and won’t make any effort to change. Someone phoned the pro shop a while ago to complain his group had lost two holes on the group ahead, and one of the assistant pros came out to move them along. Rather than heed the advice the ex-captain stormed across the course to confront the member he (correctly) assumed had put it the call, and what followed was an undignified shouting match.

Even when that was communicated to the committee nothing was done, either about that particular incident, or his ongoing liking for playing at a snail’s pace.

With such a reluctance to deal head on with issues, nothing will change.

It’s things like this that put me off joining a club!

 

[Mandofred]

My thinking is just different. For me - it is never good for me to hold resentments arising from benefits that others might get as a result of my own actions, much better for me be aware of the benefits that I might get from that action, and at the same time consider whether my action has actually cost me anything. Sometimes an action will - often it won't. But I'll usually get a benefit - either immediately or subsequently.

And so in the situation in question I simply do not believe that letting a group through will with any certainty have a negative impact on me or my group - it might have a temporary impact as the hole may take 5mins longer to play - but in the context of the round - minimal impact - if any. And I know with 100% certainty that if I view things that way then I'll feel the better for it - and so my golf for the rest of the round is likely to be the better for it.

No argument from me on what you have written. But I still can't get anybody to actually tell me why a group of people has to play a longer round of golf, to enable another group to play faster. I don't think they can. Other than to "be nice". Which....isn't a bad thing.

But...sorry....if you let a group through...your round will take longer. This might not bother you....fair enough. Does it bother most people....yes. Have I ever let a 2 ball through my group (when there is no space) just because someone in my group insists I have to because of etiquette....yes. Doesn't really bother me. It doesn't make sense, but if it makes my playing partner feel better... I don't get upset about it. It's just one of those nonsensical things that happen in life. When I was a lot younger....it might have drove me around the bend....but.....fortunately/unfortunately, I have matured.

Again....and again I will say this. I'm all for letting groups behind you go through if they are a faster group and there is room for them to move into. Just letting a group through because......it's etiquette... is not a good reason.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

No argument from me on what you have written. But I still can't get anybody to actually tell me why a group of people has to play a longer round of golf, to enable another group to play faster. I don't think they can. Other than to "be nice". Which....isn't a bad thing.

But...sorry....if you let a group through...your round will take longer. This might not bother you....fair enough. Does it bother most people....yes. Have I ever let a 2 ball through my group (when there is no space) just because someone in my group insists I have to because of etiquette....yes. Doesn't really bother me. It doesn't make sense, but if it makes my playing partner feel better... I don't get upset about it. It's just one of those nonsensical things that happen in life. When I was a lot younger....it might have drove me around the bend....but.....fortunately/unfortunately, I have matured.

Again....and again I will say this. I'm all for letting groups behind you go through if they are a faster group and there is room for them to move into. Just letting a group through because......it's etiquette... is not a good reason.

The point is that we simply do not know this for a certainly.

I believe that we choose to think it, as we find it a bit of a fiddle letting a group through. But as we do not actually know how long our round of golf is going to be, we therefore cannot know whether 5mins extra playing one hole due to letting a group through is actually going to make our round longer than it might otherwise have been. We just don't. And so we create a resentment around something that we think might happen - but that equally might not.

 

[Billysboots]

Again....and again I will say this. I'm all for letting groups behind you go through if they are a faster group and there is room for them to move into. Just letting a group through because......it's etiquette... is not a good reason.

Agreed. 100%.

There seems to be an expectation that quicker groups should be waved through simply because they are quicker, but the circumstances still have to allow it.

Our club put a stop to allowing 2-balls after 8am at a weekend, but the practice seems to have started again. And with it we seem to have inherited a problem where a minority of 2-balls seem to think they have a divine right to charge through the field.

There is absolutely no point, if the course is booked solid with 4-balls, in allowing every 2-ball through it slows the whole field up and as such is counter productive. For that reason a sign by the 1st tee rightly points out to players that the pace of play at a weekend will be that of a 4-ball.

If I’m on my own during the week and the course is busy, I will often refuse to play through even when asked. I’ll always tell the group inviting me through that I’m happy where I am, and not to feel pressured by a singleton behind them. I don’t want to be the meat in the sandwich, and hate being the cause of stop/start golf as I make my way through a crowded field.

It’s all about respect, courtesy and common sense. And understanding that, whilst nice to allow quicker groups through in most circumstances, there will still be times when doing so simply isn’t practical.

 

[Mandofred]

The point is that we simply do not know this for a certainly.

I believe that we choose to think it, as we find it a bit of a fiddle letting a group through. But as we do not actually know how long our round of golf is going to be, we therefore cannot know whether 5mins extra playing one hole due to letting a group through is actually going to make our round longer than it might otherwise have been. We just don't. And so we create a resentment around something that we think might happen - but that equally might not.

99.9%....slower. I always leave the possibility for aliens to come down and whisk a few people away....which I guess could make the round faster.

I agree with you....only a general idea of how long my round will be. But what I do know.....it will take longer if I wait around and let groups go in front of me. I can't even think of a way (disregarding aliens) for my round to be quicker than it would have been by putting more people in front of me. I'm still waiting for an explanation of how it's possible. Maybe if the group I let through gives the group ahead £100 each if they just leave....that might do it, but that would get rid of the number of people in front our group.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

99.9%....slower. I always leave the possibility for aliens to come down and whisk a few people away....which I guess could make the round faster.

I agree with you....only a general idea of how long my round will be. But what I do know.....it will take longer if I wait around and let groups go in front of me. I can't even think of a way (disregarding aliens) for my round to be quicker than it would have been by putting more people in front of me. I'm still waiting for an explanation of how it's possible. Maybe if the group I let through gives the group ahead £100 each if they just leave....that might do it, but that would get rid of the number of people in front our group.

I‘m simply saying how I cope with a group pressing - I consider it to be no big deal as I consider any delay in completing the hole as a result of letting a group through as being of little importance.

Clearly were group after group to be pressing and I found myself having to let multiple groups through then I’d be questioning the speed of my group given my experience is that when a course is full most groups adjust their speed of play to play to the course speed; and they try not and press the group in front. Yes - if I have to let multiple groups through then my round is almost inevitably going to take longer - but in my experience having to do that is very rare.

And on how a round might be quicker. Well as I have said. At the point you let a group through you have no accurate idea of how long your round was going to be. So when you finish your actual round you don’t know whether you’ve been quicker or slower than had you not let the group through. You just cannot ever know that. How many times have you zipped your front nine and then for no obvious reason your back nine takes 15mins longer? It’s just golf.

But look. All of this is just how I manage my thinking in such circumstances to enable me to best enjoy my golf - to not get irritated and build a resentment. That it works for me doesn’t mean it’ll work for anyone else.

 

[hovis]

We we're the 5th group off this morning in a two ball. There were 4x4balls ahead of us packed together. We got through all groups by the 7th hole. When we got to the 12th we looked across and all 4 groups where still packed together. Result I say!!!!!

 

[sunshine]

Many times and I’ve assured them I will get through. Once I hear those words the game of golf stops and a new game begins and I have a good knack at making people very uncomfortable. That’s hitting my shot greenside while they’re on the green then watching them, staring at them from 30-40 yards away. I have even got my rangefinder out and watched them through it. I’ll make it the utmost effort to “play with them”.
Twice It’s had to go that far.

I’ve heard you won’t get anywhere and gone through three groups after and When you approach fast and look angry groups tend to part like Moses and the Red Sea.

And unsure if I’m ashamed or not as it generally works if all else fails but landing balls by the group infront usually sends a clear message. “I am going kill you soon”.

This is hilarious. Staring at them through your range finder, you should buy a sniper's rifle and use that as your DMD. They would definitely get the message

I also like the idea of deliberately laying your approach short of the green so you can stand close by to them menacingly. This is what is missing in golf. If I've got 150 to the green, instead of waiting for the green to clear I should hit a 9 iron 140 to the front fringe and then stand by my ball waiting for the group ahead to putt out. It means missing out on GIR but if it intimidates other members that's a better outcome.

In this scenario a high ball works better as it lands with a louder thud which will startle the group ahead. A low running shot just doesn't have the same impact.

 

[patricks148]

We we're the 5th group off this morning in a two ball. There were 4x4balls ahead of us packed together. We got through all groups by the 7th hole. When we got to the 12th we looked across and all 4 groups where still packed together. Result I say!!!!!

just as well you were not behind some from on here, you would have been told there was no where for you to go

 

[badgergm]

just as well you were not behind some from on here, you would have been told there was no where for you to go

I think that misrepresents what some people are trying to say. I think what some people are saying is that there are multiple factors to be taken into account. One of those is the time of day - a two ball going fifth out in the day? For sure, let them through, no one should argue with that.

But a three ball in the middle of a packed course of 4 balls in the middle of the day who might be marginally faster if there was a clear course?

IMO people underestimate the disruption that can be caused by letting people through, especially when course is full. Its not uncommon for the group playing through to have to look for a ball for instance. Such delays mean the course behind them gets held up significantly.

If everybody behaved like some on here you'd spend half the round sorting yourselves into the perfect order of playing speed.

At the end of the day there is no substitute for maintaining a reasonable pace of play. Key to that IMO is having clear documented expected playing times at various points of the course. And for e.g. competition Saturdays to be monitored and reported against those times.

 

[patricks148]

I think that misrepresents what some people are trying to say. I think what some people are saying is that there are multiple factors to be taken into account. One of those is the time of day - a two ball going fifth out in the day? For sure, let them through, no one should argue with that.

But a three ball in the middle of a packed course of 4 balls in the middle of the day who might be marginally faster if there was a clear course?

IMO people underestimate the disruption that can be caused by letting people through, especially when course is full. Its not uncommon for the group playing through to have to look for a ball for instance. Such delays mean the course behind them gets held up significantly.

If everybody behaved like some on here you'd spend half the round sorting yourselves into the perfect order of playing speed.

At the end of the day there is no substitute for maintaining a reasonable pace of play. Key to that IMO is having clear documented expected playing times at various points of the course. And for e.g. competition Saturdays to be monitored and reported against those times.

The fact is loads come on here complaining that they are not being let through and that slow play is killing the game, yet many are making exuses not to let anyone through.. i know what i believe

 

[robinthehood]

The fact is loads come on here complaining that they are not being let through and that slow play is killing the game, yet many are making exuses not to let anyone through.. i know what i believe

Yarp, same old lines get trotted out time and time again.
No Where to go etc..
Face it, men just don't like letting people play through.

 

[Mandofred]

The fact is loads come on here complaining that they are not being let through and that slow play is killing the game, yet many are making exuses not to let anyone through.. i know what i believe

The "excuse" I've seen (that I can remember) is that when the course is packed full of people and everything is just grinding along at a blah speed.....letting people through in that case doesn't make sense. I think you are inventing other scenarios that aren't being mentioned (unless I've just forgotten...always possible). I highlighted my main point in red (which I have mentioned a number of times), it's the ONLY point I've tried to make. Yep, people have complained about groups not letting them through.....but it seems that this argument comes up because there is room on the course for people to easily get through and the group that is holding them up are just being pain in the butts. I for one have NEVER mentioned it's ok to hold people up who are playing faster and there is at least a little room to slide into. The example mentioned earlier just solidifies this view.....there were several groups they got through and then plenty of open space. Absolutely....I'm all for letting people through.....and I can't remember anybody on here saying otherwise.....?

Now a slight variation of my argument has come up.....what if your group (let's just say a 4 ball) is being held up behind 4 groups as mentioned earlier. Another 4 ball comes up behind you....only playing faster because they haven't run into the log-jam yet. Would you let that group through....even though your group is hoping to go faster as well?

I think people are inventing things that aren't being stated and are twisting them to fit with what they want to believe.

 

[badgergm]

Yarp, same old lines get trotted out time and time again.
No Where to go etc..
Face it, men just don't like letting people play through.

Same old simplistic dogma spouted by people unwilling to accept that there are shades of grey in the issue.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

There are the same lines trotted out but what about in a competition. At the moment to ensure as many people can enter the comps as possible with the lack of light/reduced tee times we are playing comps as four balls. What happens or what peoples views if you are for arguments sake one of the last groups out and are flying and playing well and your group is moving nicely and you have a great tempo going. A two ball goes out after the comp and by the fourth is behind the last group and waiting on every shot. They get let through, and by the ninth are let through by the next group. They are now behind your group. You have gone out several shots under handicap at the turn, and start the back nine well. Do you now have to stand aside even though you are in ideal position behind the group in front. Will it upset your timing and affect your game? Do you let them through?

 

[robinthehood]

Same old simplistic dogma spouted by people unwilling to accept that there are shades of grey in the issue.

Sadly the evidence is overwhelming that people don't like to allow others through.

 

[badgergm]

Sadly the evidence is overwhelming that people don't like to allow others through.

dont disagree with that, but that’s not really the point. The debate is about the circumstances in which you must, or should, let others through.

 

[sunshine]

We all know the groups of old men out on the course who adopt this attitude

 

[Mandofred]

We all know the groups of old men out on the course who adopt this attitude

Mostly agree....but I actually think a lot of them don't even realize they are holding people up.....doesn't even occur to them.

 

[Robster59]

Here we go, another 20 page debate coming up no doubt.

Well, it's getting there.